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this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2023
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They never finished the sentence in the news articles.
Business unable to find the labor it needs! Is usually where they stop they leave out the "at the price they want". From the sentence.
It really should say business unable to find the labor it needs at the price it wants
Journalists really shouldn't let businesses get away with not saying the quiet part out loud.
Very rarely is it really something like there's 13 people in the world who can do this. And none of them live here. That's an interesting story, but that's not the story that's often told. It's usually local laborers too expensive we want to import some external labor that's less expensive. At least in the United States then they craft a job specification that can't be matched locally but it's tailored specifically for an external candidate to get a visa.
It's not just the price, it's the whole package. The only place I've seen it being lightly talked about was on the Aug 11th's WAN Show.
TSMC is a Taiwanese company, therefore they expect workers to follow the Asian/Chinese work culture. Meaning basically living (usually literally) in the company and very rarely going home for a quick visit. None of this western "work/life balance" nonsense, none of the unionization stuff. Oh you're not happy with something? Do not even dare speaking up, much less grouping up to discuss or protest. Just suck it up and deal with it.
The price is important, don't get me wrong, but Chinese companies do not want people who won't take any and everything their bosses say without even a slight hint of question.
All of which US companies would love to push onto their employees and work place.
Yep. The thing is that in the US it's not readily available, and even if companies do twist the government's arm to make it happen, it'd still take quite a while for people to accept it (if they ever do in significant numbers).
Also, obligatory reference to the documentary American Factory, where the differences between American and Chinese work cultures are shown in a similar scenario (a Chinese company opening a factory in the US).
I didn't know about this film, but I just watched the trailer and now it's on my list. Thanks!
Thanks! I just added this to my Netflix queue.
This person has no idea what they're talking about. I'm an EE based in Arizona. I work with a lot of people who used to work for Intel, NXP, On Semi, etc. Semiconductor Fabs tend to have a pretty intense work culture. But from what they tell me, TSMC is on a whole 'nother level, and TSMC can't pay them enough to put up with it's work culture and expectations. They have the skills but at the end of the day, for them, family and their sanity is more important.
Are there people who will thrive in such conditions? Absolutely, just like I personally know a guy who thrives working in an Amazon warehouse. However, from my experience, people who want to have families and not have their lives revolve around their jobs are not interest in working for TSMC.
The Taiwanese were not born gods of semiconductors. They were one of the very first places we massively exported things to like Mexico. They were trained and educated over decades to get where they are now. Even if that was the issue it's nothing that couldn't be solved by education.
I worked in a semiconductor plant. There isn't any special skill to it. You have a list that you do and nowadays the robots actually do all the difficult work.
In my time, you had to check and calculate by hand the offsets for the lithography machines. Now with it being done in self-contained robots because of the radiation x-ray process, a person just manages the robots.
Also, why isn't the new Intel plant being built having the same issues with qualified workers?
I personally think it's stupid to build a high water using plant in the middle of a desert, when the area hasn't ever monitored the water table.
Finally, someone mentioning the water usage aspect for a plant being built in Arizona. A water intensive/critical process? Sure, set it up in a desert…
Intel recycles nearly 100% of the water they use, I'm sure TSMC will do something similar. They need to do a ridiculous amount of processing to make it suitable to return to the city supply anyways, so they just found a way to reuse
It's not a choice though. It is an inevitability. The United States foolishly pushed everything off over there. Only now realizing how bad a mistake that was. And how silly it is for nearly all of that sort of product to originate in that region for no real reason. It would have always made sense for those products to be produced closer to the market that they are to be sold in if at all possible. And it has always been possible. There will be factories and Chip Manufacturing in the United States again soon. And yes it's TSMC's Choice ultimately whether or not they will be part of it. But it is happening.
To be clear I have a very low opinion of capitalists. And I 100% think that the heads of TSMC will act like short-sighted petulant children and probably screw themselves over in the long term.
And I don't know where the hell the American exceptionalism BS came from. It has nothing to do with that. Any humans, basically anywhere in the world can potentially learn and be trained to do this. The biggest roadblock is the affordability of the equipment to do so currently. But every major country/region should be pushing right now to build their own ability to produce. Canada United States Brazil, the EU, Russia even, Australia, New Zealand. Especially looking into designing and building their own riskv technologies. It will happen eventually. But how bad capitalists respond to all this will determine ultimately how long they will be relevant.
It's only American exceptionalism if it's put in terms of americans. As I specifically stated I think any country can do this. There's nothing special about Taiwan in this instance other than it already exists there. It used to exist in the US and Russia as well. It will again. Taiwan thinking it can, or that it's good to maintain a monopoly. Is silly.
And again if Taiwan thinks that that's going to save them. Which is a foolish thing to think. (China only wants them literally because they currently have a near Monopoly on manufacture. Diluting that Monopoly would actually make them safer) They're going to be sorely disappointed. If China moved tonight. Not a single military unit would be dispatched to attack internationally. The US wastes the most money of any country on military and military equipment. But they aren't going to deploy. China is threatening everyone around them with impunity. And the US/EU can't threaten much more than hollow product boycotts. Because they've all handed over their nuts on a platter to exploit near slave labor in Xi's authoritarian wonderland.
The best way to neuter Xi is for everyone to take back as much of China's manufacturing as possible. And not concentrate it in the hands of an authoritarian dictator for a few bucks extra.
You have some good points but I'm not sure TSMC are looking for highly-skilled people to work at their off-site factory. I honestly believe that most, if not all high-skill positions would be filled by Chinese people. They need factory workers to keep the factory running, I seriously doubt they'd expect the US factory to be able to create anything new on its own in the foreseeable future.
But at any rate, your points also show that it's not just the price at play here.
Lastly, I agree with you regarding LTT. I didn't mean that they were bringing some insightful new information, just that it was the only place I saw it even being mentioned. I live in mainland China and see how Chinese companies treat employees, that's where I got my replies from.
😂
Factories share some similar characteristics no matter where they are in the world. I've seen first-hand examples of it in a few countries and second-hand examples in many others.
Even places squarely "first world" such as Japan, South Korea or Singapore have very similar expectations for factory work, such as long hours in exchange for low salary.
You can keep being petulant and attempting to force your opinion on the subject, I've said what I had to.
They're Chinese. They're from the Republic of China.
Taiwanese people are ethnically Chinese.
That said, I don't have a dog in that fight and don't care one way or another whether Taiwan is considered part of China or a separate country.
You seem offended by that for some reason, so my last reply to you is: I first said Asian/Chinese. I wasn't implying any political innuendo into the matter, I was merely referencing common Asian practices that I know are true in Taiwan as well as mainland China. Factories are factories, be it in mainland China, Taiwan, Japan, Vietnam, Africa or anywhere else. Stop trying to read offense where there isn't.
And have a nice day.
At this point it is crystal clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, but I'll potentially waste some more time to type information that I believe are the most important to rebate your most wrong/insane claims.
First, you seem focused on Taiwan’s recent history (perhaps influenced by what you’ve seen regarding Hong Kong since 2019?), but Taiwan’s history is actually a lot longer than that. You can use this Wikipedia link as reference going forward if you at all plan on stopping being a non-sense-spewing piece of trash, but considering how that was just 1 Google search away from you and you still didn’t manage to do it, I don’t have hope for it.
Taiwan, much like the vast majority of East Asia (if not all of Asia) is not as diverse as the US, so your bullshit about Taiwan being ethnically Chinese is the same as the US being ethnically British is a great sign of you being completely clueless about what the hell you’re talking about.
Over 90% of its population is reported as Han Chinese by its own fucking government, so it is clear that there is absolutely nothing wrong with me saying that Taiwanese people are ethnically Chinese, while it is completely wrong for you to compare that statement to the bullshit that Americans are ethnically British. There are Americans who are, but that’s only one of the many minorities in that country. Meanwhile, 90%+ of Taiwanese people are Han Chinese, so please stop your nonsense.
Second, another useful link for you. Go read it. I don’t claim to be any sort of expert in Chinese/Taiwanese history, but I know enough to not state trash like you have been. Taiwan as we know it today is vastly the result of mainland Chinese people migrating to the island over political situations that happened less than 100 years ago. This fact adds even more credence to the point of Taiwanese people being ethnically Chinese.
And finally, as others have already told you, Taiwan calls itself Republic of China.
I hope you learn how to find answers to your confused mind before you speak and especially, before you attack others due to your own ignorance.
You have a nice life.
Taiwan has been independent from the mainland since 1949. That's 74 years. Were people in the US in 1850 ethnically British? Largely yes, and that's with the US recieving massive migration from other countries, which Taiwan has not had.
The Taiwanese people speak Chinese, practice Chinese cultural traditions, call themselves the Republic of China many even to this day support reconciliation.
My understanding is that this isn't even about making the semiconductors, this is just about building the factory in the first place. In this case, Taiwan's expertise in making chips means fuck all.
I don't understand your example. You don't just tell someone "Hey, I want an acoustic testing chamber."
Your "experts" are going to have the plans already made and the contractors build to that spec. The contractors don't 'decide where to use metal or foam. Your experts' building plans should have that already in there, otherwise they aren't much of an expert.
I agree that your point is usually true. But I am not sure that is the case here. In prior news they alleged that they developed the knowledge as they learned from experience from issues with past fabs. If there are no fabs in the continent anywhere close to what they want to build it’s possible that there aren’t enough workers with all the skillsets they are looking for.
On the other hand they are known to take advantage of the fact that their workers are so specialized that it’s difficult to find alternative job offers so they don’t pay well. They will definitely run into the scenario you described when they look for fab operation staff. At least this is known so many people avoid this field entirely.
The advice in business is have more than one customer, cuz if you have a single customer they'll take advantage of you. The same is true for employers. Your skills need to be marketable to a large field even if it's a critical skill if it's a small field you'll be taken advantage of.
Absolutely. But most of the people in the industry refuses to acknowledge the truth and would rather whine. In some cases they deride software engineering as “easier short term gains” which is completely false. At least in this case supply and demand seem to be working. At some point they’ll have to pay more or no one will invest in a career in an exploitative field.
The whining is strategic. Never let a emergency go to waste. So you want to lower your labor costs in the future if you can. By complaining about an emergency today.
It's Business Inside-Her. What do you expect?
Are you using voice to text typing too? That's a bone apple tea I have seen before. Business insider does not give the most granular journalism. Agreed
No, I was attempting to make a sexual joke. Business Insider has a bad habit of taking in whatever bullshit Big Daddy Business tells them without any shred of "journalism".
It also would have been perfectly fine to name the company in the headline. There is plenty of room for it. But that’s Business Insider for you.
A world leading bleeding edge chip maker is looking at building in the desert and claims there's not enough resources to do it. Sounds like Arizona doesn't have enough chip knowledge, which is believable because there are no other chip or silicon manufacturing in the state.
What is Arizona proposing as a solution? Because TSMC is already saying they have an answer to the "not enough talent" problem and are paying god knows what to fly some of the best educated architects in the world over and house them in a place that no one wants to be.
It sounds like you don't understand the problem.
Intel has multiple fabs in Arizona and is building 20A fabs there.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites
It sounds like you don't understand the problem.
No other chip production in the state?
Intel has several fabs in Chandler, AZ. They have down to 10 nm there, with 5nm being their best. So there definitely is a chunk of knowledge in the state.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_sites
This article states several others: https://www.chipsetc.com/semiconductor-companies-in-arizona.html
Seems like semiconductors are kind of a big deal in and around Chandler which is presumably why TSMC chose there.
Fair, agreed, I dont understand the problem.
The highest volume Intel fab in the world is in Arizona, about an hour from the TSMC site. TSMC has been trying to poach people from Intel by offering them more money. However many people are rejecting their offer, despite the pay raise, due to the toxic work culture at TSMC and possibly a longer commute.
It is very inaccurate to say there is no other chip or silicon manufacturing in the state. There is a ton in Phoenix - Microchip has multiple fabs and is headquartered in Scottsdale, there's also NXP, ON Semi, Intel, probably more that I don't know about. It's not the exact same technology that TSMC is building (AFAIK), but there is definitely a strong semiconductor industry in Arizona.
Dude you are so wrong. Intel has MASSIVE fabs there and are building an even larger one on Chandler, Motorola has built chips in AZ at many different locations for 30+ years, Honeywell, Nokia, etc. ALL have plants there. It is colloquially known as the Silicon Desert because of this.