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this post was submitted on 29 Aug 2024
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the_dunk_tank
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It's the dunk tank.
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I'm not going to weigh in on pets particularly because I don't know enough, I'm also not vegan. I do however want to remark that you can sense the meat eating guilt and reactionary emotional defensiveness in a lot of this stuff. People feel very attacked and very defensive.
There is an underlying feeling deep down that it is wrong but because they personally enjoy it and get happy hormones when eating the topic triggers a massive emotional response.
Speculation: Eating food is probably one of the only times some people truly genuinely feel happy and is responsible for the massive defensive reaction when anyone suggests food habits should be changed. I suspect that the non-vegans that do not react poorly to the topic have much stronger sources of happiness that aren't food.
ha ha
I wish more people did this about things
In hindsight it sort of sounds like I think you need to be vegan to weigh in on that. Those should be two separate things. I just wanted to mention that I'm not for the sake of the post itself. The pet part is just genuinely because I've looked at literally no research. I avoid forming opinions on shit I know nothing about.
Ya I think it's cool people can just go "ya I don't have the knowledge to weigh in on this subject". I unironically wish people did this more.
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we must find a way to transcribe this into the human brain upon birthIt's not quite that early, but China is going to be building a ton of schools in Iraq. Maybe they'll soon have a country of smol investigators 🥹
That's a very interesting idea!
Yes, it's like literally saying "i don't want you to be happy", i have that too, albeit only about bugs (but seriously i did almost ended a friendship over that, fortunately they weren't serious about it and backed off when they realised i was).
like you care about bugs and your friend was being cruel about them or...?
No, we talk about eating bugs, i expressed my absolute deathly disgust and next few meetings they were teasing me for it and finally they brought package of crickets and eated it demonstratingly before me, seeing that i freaked out and told them to get the fuck out of my home before i puke on them, and looking at the mirror shortly later i was really green-red-yellow and felt also like this so it wasn't a hyperbole. Fortunately after looking at my face they understood i'm serious so they packed it back and never brought it again, and even brought me some delicious mochi next time as apology, so it's all good.
aww I'm sorry they did that to you, glad they patched it up with you though!
also gentle correction, "eated" isn't a word people use, in english people almost always use "ate"
I have thoughts so strap in. This is a bit of a rant trigger for me.
Food is awesomely important to humans. Every culture I have looked at (layperson, not anthropologist so there's that) has some sort of food-hospitality ritual. Festivities have particular foods associated with them, you eat and drink certain things at weddings, funerals, birthdays, season changes, whatever. In houses it is often the kitchen which becomes the center of activity and socialisation. Food is probably involved to some degree in the vast majority of good memories you have, from meals with family, self indulgence after a hard or stressful day, meetings with friends, celebrations of achievement etc.
This isn't that surprising, we are meat and it needs sustaining. A huge amount of effort in any individual's life goes into securing and eating food.
But if you're the kind of person that doesn't view the world through a systemic lens, that looks at structural issues and ideological hegemony as a series of individual moral failings. Well someone raising veganism is obviously doing so to say that you are a bad person and you should feel guilty about all of your good memories. You see this shit directly, people constantly accuse vegans of having moral superiority complexes and wanting to shame people. Research says people vastly overestimate how negatively vegans judge non vegans. Antivegans also conveniently forget that almost every single vegan was non-vegan and thus was complicit in carnism until they were given the chance to change by someone else's advocacy and education.
Generally the data say that people who anticipate negative judgement less from vegans are more likely to rate vegans as more moral/more positively. Notably this is true even in the absence of any actual interactions. The lashing out is massively driven by a guilt complex caused by a garbage understanding of how human societies and systemic evil actually work.
This makes me wonder if there is an approach to selling veganism that offers the same approach marxism makes when it comes to socialism - not being a moralist about it. I suspect selling to those people would be more effective without the preconceived beliefs they have about vegans and moral judgement. Maybe a specific spinoff branch of veganism without the name vegan, named intentionally to get people to ask what it is. It would potentially enable a foot in the door because it wouldn't trigger the reactions.
Idk, figure out how to make yourself vegan and get back to me with what opened your mind?
My experience was studying/working in ag and packing chickens I loved into crates to go be murdered triggering a lifetime of guilt and a slowly narrowing list of people it was acceptable to murder for pleasure based on the latest science. Before I realised my null hypothesis was entirely fucked up and kept leading me astray. I can't really empathise with people who aren't acutely aware of the guilt and shame in carnism as it happened to me around the time I feel I can start recalling consistent memories (14ish) so it's hard for me to understand what would be individually effective.
The only times I've managed to actually change anyone's mind in person it has been a process of relentless reminders that another way is possible which has preventing them from embracing the "normal, natural, necessary" required to justify stuff.
Lots of activists try different things, and many studies have been done. But it appears that mind-changing happens over a long time and we're basically highly persistent to being persuaded of anything once we form our first opinion. The best studies basically say "after such and such an intervention people rated their likelihood of going vegan higher/lower on the exit survey". Not useless, but it's impossible to capture what actually converts people that way.
Personally I get the most "huh" faces when I wear my elwood's dog meat Tshirt and cause random people to come up to me and make most of the case of veganism for me in the face of my apparent inhumanity.
My reasons are dietary. I have IBS that might be crohns or worse or something else (nobody seems to reliably know) that basically makes eating right now a very annoying thing to manage. Everything I do is about being as insanely boring as possible and not upsetting my body when I am seemingly balanced.
Mayyyyybe I could figure out balancing things while also being vegan but the barrier for me is quite high, I become completely incapacitated for days at a time when something sets me off, it's very severe, and sometimes it just happens all by itself without a trigger. Going low fodmap is helpful. But nothing reliably has fodmap testing and fodmap info isn't on any packaging for anything despite the prevalence of bowel problems and the well researched fact that low-fodmap diets are well known to help it.
I'm not really trying to audit you it was mostly a little joke since you seem self aware but for what it's worth I also have IBS.
I am sick a lot, but such is life. If I could make myself well by like harvesting a substance from the hearts of orphans I wouldn't do that, and I basically feel the same way about killing non human people. That said a couple of things: if crohns get it figured out, early intervention is important, if IBS fodmap exclusoom is not considered a long term solution by the folks at Monash that discovered it anyway but rather a diagnostic test.
I have slowly improved, with gradual introduction of trigger foods. Some stuff like sprouting lentils appears to help a bit. Cooking them in alkaline water (e.g. teaspoon of bicarb). Ferments help a lot! I assume the bacteria are eating the problematic sugars.
Isolates like tvp are also great! seitan and TVP are lifesavers for me during bad flares.
I won't lie, it's painful and gross and I have to wear pads 24/7 for mucus leakage at unexpected times but like if I was in the middle ages with bone cancer mine would be to suffer and die, I'm in this era with shitty food options and mine is to cramp and leak.
Other options poop transplant trials? They show promising results, I'm keeping an eye out.
out of curiosity do you know what % of people that are raised vegan or go vegan before like 13 remain vegan their whole lives?
No idea!
damn rip. was having a conversation about what AES with another person and I was wondering if my idea of trying to slowly turn the population vegan through school was at least a viable idea as far as being able to turn kids vegan lol
don't even need to see the study to know that this is true, this is pretty much how confirmation bias and what not work, when you dislike something/someone you will notice and remember the bad experiences a lot more than the normal and good experiences even if there are more good experiences than bad and vice versa. Here is my enlightened centrist take: there are some weird and very annoying vegans on one side and on the other you have a swarming mass of psychotic carnists who take great pleasure in this fact and anyone who takes the carnists side in the online struggle needs to look deep within themselves
Don't fence sit! Go vegan, we get magic powers like firebreath (need a lighter) it comes out the wrong end though.
I will eventually go to the diet at least. I'm still not sure if my beliefs could be considered vegan or not, lowkey been talking about it with a hexbear vegan all day. At bare minimum I will always be a sympathizer if that makes any sense to you (i.e. not necessarily full believer but still a supporter if that makes sense?)
If you think you will eventually you should probably just do it, since you anticipate a future you finding it correct it seems that you anticipate finding each day you didn't do it incorrect. So you probably owe it to yourself to conclude what you think you will anyway. It seems harder than it is, there's lots of useful inspo over at vegantheoryclub and loads of people to answer questions you might have.
I don't really know what you mean re believer vs sympathiser. Like it's not a set of strict beliefs. I assume like most people you think hurting others is bad, either you believe living beings deserve the assumption of sentience (i.e. that there is an other to hurt) unless proven otherwise or you do not. If you do not veganism would look like people avoiding skimming rocks lest they ruin the lake's weekend, if you do then veganism is just living in accordance with the values you already hold.
I have already concluded that a vegan diet is the most moral way to live life since before I even started using either site. I just lack the discipline and strength of character right now that I'm working to fix. I say only probably because I don't want to promise something and then not fulfill it in a reasonable amount of time. as far as "believer" vs "sympathizer": for me personally, I am unsure if the belief that is ok to hurt sentient beings in certain scenarios or de-emphasis on consumption allows for veganism. As far as believer vs sympathizer: generally, it's someone who won't try to resist or even will even help in some way the changes you (and your group) are making to society because they sympathize with you and your beliefs even if they dont necessarily agree with them. It's a a concept I think more easily applied to socialism but I think it can still apply to veganism too.
Re self discipline. I have faith in you, I mean I'm a human garbage fire; I am don't get-out-of-bed some days depressed and a polydrug user just to cope with life. I manage! It really does seem harder from the outset. Mostly because all it requires is for you to not do something, it's not like exercise (or even brushing your teeth :P) where you have to make yourself do a thing. You can live off pressure cooked beans and rice for a long time while you figure stuff out :) and there is a veritable army of us willing to help with whatever specific issues.
We're not Jains! haha I think it's fine to hurt someone who wants to kill someone if they wont stop trying and I don't have better options. The literal definition from the club that invented the word is:
"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."
Nothing particularly consumerist or absolute pacifist or whatever in there. I mean some of the most based vegans go around sabotaging farms and shit. The reality is most of us are always buying things so a lot of visible veganism is seen through those small acts of defiance. This is the result of circumstance though not some inherent belief that all there is to do is not buy fur coats or whatever. All sorts of vegan movements take non consumerist forms such as research and development of alternatives (some small scale, like figuring out how to garden without manure etc and teaching others is vegan praxis), producing propaganda/investigating animal ag, rescue from and sabotage of facilities that abuse non human animals, working at sanctuaries, organising politically to further animal rights and so on.
Ah that makes sense, thanks for explaining.
appreciate the faith in me! my biggest problem is getting the motivation to get up and feed myself at all (so much so I will not eat some days, and even go multiple days without eating), and I use my meat treats as extra motivation to get me to do it. Simplest solution is to retrain my brain into viewing vegan stuff as the treats of course... it's better since I've moved into an apartment by myself because I'm way less nervous to use the kitchen. Once I finally get my apartment actually fully set up and cleaned up I want to start learning meal prepping so I stop eating out nearly as much, It is much harder to find vegan options and maintain discipline in the restaurants closest to my place (i very rarely go farther than 15 min by foot or 5 min by car)
as far as my beliefs, what I'm trying to say is that I'm just not sure they 1 to 1 match with vegans. I dont feel like I feel as much guilt for eating meat as I've seen many other vegans describe, I'm not as sold on "animal liberation" and ending their exploitation as opposed to ending their suffering, that kind of thing.
There are so many plant based treats! I highly recommend raiding asain groceries (particularly Chinese and Thai, but also Korean) if you're not a usual shopper there. So many premade things/affordable substitutes (usually not the healthiest but it's not like anyone eats animal products because they're healthy anyway) and wonderful snacks like https://msshiandmrhe.com/latiao/
I personally am a fan of this "omlette" as a quick and easy make once, fry when hangry each week https://www.copymethat.com/r/i55XAfMM2/vegan-egg-moong-dal-omelette/ you can throw whatever in it too.
appreciate the advice, saved!
I wonder if this also applies to racism, sexism, etc.? Like if people who associate their positions on the hierarchy with happy memories (relationship swith their relatives, hanging out with a group of guys after school, etc.). So when you attack their position of power, they take it really personally. The "white guilt" stuff they spout is pure projection.
Now I'm wondering about how bullying the other manifests itself. It's pretty common for white people to bond by using racism. Perhaps some chuds think fondly of the time they made fun of some gay person with their group of friends. When you tell them stuff like that is wrong, they flip the fuck out.
absolutely. a huge part of the material benefit that bigots get out of being bigots is social standing and social closeness