this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2026
3 points (100.0% liked)

Friendly Carnivore

111 readers
1 users here now

Carnivore

The ultimate, zero carb, elimination diet

Meat Heals.

We are focused on health and lifestyle while trying to eat zero carb bioavailable foods.

Keep being AWESOME

We welcome engaged, polite, and logical debates and questions of any type


Purpose

Rules

  1. Be nice
  2. Stay on topic
  3. Don't farm rage
  4. Be respectful of other diets, choices, lifestyles!!!!
  5. No Blanket down voting - If you only come to this community to downvote its the wrong community for you
  6. No LLM generated posts . Don't represent machine output as your own, and don't use machines to burn human response time.

Other terms: LCHF Carnivore, Keto Carnivore, Ketogenic Carnivore, Low Carb Carnivore, Zero Carb Carnivore, Animal Based Diet, Animal Sourced Foods


Meta

Carnivore Resource List

If you need to block this community and the UI won't let you, go to settings -> blocks you can add it.

[Meta] Moderation Policy for Niche Communities

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Gram for gram, soy protein has at least a thousand times the estrogenic activity of hormone-treated beef. So if you're worried about hormones in beef, you should be more worried about soy.

Sydney doctor Dr Paul Mason and co-host Alison work through your comments: hormone growth promotants vs soy isoflavones, soy formula, lavender and tea tree oil in young boys, BPA on receipts and "BPA-free" plastics, feminised fish downstream of sewage, whether the Chinese really stayed healthy on 80% rice and vegetables, what Denise Minger found in the raw China Study data, how Dean Ornish's "reversal" of heart disease came down to 0.01 mm on an angiogram, why half of "70% blockages" aren't 70% when a computer measures them, polar bear liver vs beef liver, vitamin A and measles, oxalate dumping, and whether protein can help hypoglycaemia.

Plus two In the News segments: the herbicide atrazine and the frogs that changed sex, and Novo Nordisk's ZEUS trial, where blocking inflammation didn't prevent heart attacks.

generated summary

Hormones in meat, soy, BPA, and environmental estrogens

  • Hormone growth promotants are legal in cattle in the US and Australia except Tasmania; ear implants slowly release hormones, increasing growth by about 10–20% while producing leaner meat. They are not approved for poultry or pigs in either country.
  • The European Union has banned growth-promoting hormones since the 1980s. Meat naturally contains hormones, and implanted beef generally contains about 2–10 times more estradiol or estrogen residue.
  • Soy is a much bigger estrogenic concern because its isoflavones mimic estrogen at receptors. Traditional soy foods provide roughly 3–4 mg of isoflavones per gram of protein, and gram for gram soy protein has at least 1,000 times, probably nearer 10,000 times, the estrogenic activity of beef produced with growth-promoting hormones.
  • In premenopausal women, 60 g of soy protein daily delayed menstruation or lengthened the follicular phase and suppressed the mid-cycle LH and FSH surges, demonstrating measurable hormonal effects from dietary soy. [1]
  • Setchell's 1997 Lancet work found that four-month-old infants fed soy formula received 6–11 times the isoflavone dose per kilogram that had produced hormonal effects in adults. [2]
  • Newborn girls normally lose maternal estrogen effects after birth, but soy-formula-fed newborn girls took longer for their uterus and vaginal lining to return to normal. [3]
  • Three prepubertal boys aged 4, 7, and 10 developed gynecomastia while using topical products containing lavender or tea tree oils; the gynecomastia receded after the products were stopped. [4]
  • BPA is a plastic building block with estrogenic activity and is detectable in the urine of most people in Western populations; thermal receipt paper is another important source.
  • Cashiers handling thermal paper had substantially higher urinary BPA, reaching up to roughly three times normal levels, and Biedermann found that receipt contact left BPA on the skin, with about 27% unwashed after two hours and wet or greasy skin increasing transfer about tenfold. [5][6]
  • "BPA-free" products can use bisphenol S, so removing BPA does not necessarily remove estrogenic bisphenol exposure.
  • Short dietary interventions that eliminated canned and plastic-packaged foods rapidly lowered urinary BPA, demonstrating that exposure can fall quickly when food-packaging sources are removed. [7]
  • Sewage works do not fully remove estrogenic compounds from contraceptives, hormone therapy, and foods. Wild roach downstream of sewage works developed widespread intersex characteristics, and later work found similar reproductive disruption in white suckers and rapid feminizing responses in male fish exposed to wastewater effluent. [8][9][10]

Atrazine and endocrine disruption

  • Atrazine remains permitted in the US and Australia despite its European ban, and a recent US analysis estimated that about 25% of continental US rivers were contaminated with atrazine at levels that could cause health concern. [11]
  • Hayes's 2002 frog work found hermaphroditism and demasculinization at low, environmentally relevant atrazine concentrations, with markedly reduced testosterone in exposed males. [12]
  • A 2010 follow-up found that about 10% of atrazine-exposed genetic males became functional females, while the remaining males had demasculinization, impaired reproductive development, and reduced fertility. [13]
  • Human observational literature has also associated atrazine exposure with impaired fetal growth and birth-defect signals, supporting reverse-osmosis filtration for drinking water.

The China Study, Ornish, angiography, and stents

  • The China Study book by T. Colin Campbell and Thomas Campbell grew out of the China-Cornell-Oxford project and uses epidemiologic associations from rural China to support avoiding animal products. [14][15]
  • The original project covered villages in 65 counties and about 100 people in each location, comparing diet and health patterns; this type of epidemiology can find correlations but cannot prove that the diet caused the health outcome. [15]
  • Denise Minger reanalyzed the raw China Study data and found that all-cancer mortality was about four times more strongly associated with plant protein than animal protein, while wheat protein had a stronger association with cardiovascular disease than animal protein. [16]
  • Dean Ornish's Lifestyle Heart Trial combined a very-low-fat vegetarian diet with exercise, smoking cessation, stress management, meditation or yoga, and group support, so the diet cannot be isolated as the cause of the result. [17]
  • The coronary angiography change was tiny: converting the percentage result to vessel diameter gives roughly 0.01 mm, while measurement error with angiography can be around 10–20 times larger.
  • Angiogram interpretation is also subjective. In a large comparison using a 70% stenosis threshold, about half of lesions visually judged at or above 70% were below 70% by quantitative coronary angiography. [18]
  • Large randomized trials in stable coronary disease have repeatedly found that coronary artery stenting does not help people live longer. [19][20]

Vitamin A, liver, and measles

  • Polar-bear liver contains vastly more vitamin A than beef liver because of biomagnification; the Inuit taboo against eating it and historical explorer poisonings illustrate that genuine hypervitaminosis A from liver is possible.
  • Beef or lamb liver is much lower in vitamin A. Chronic toxicity would generally require something on the order of 150 g of raw beef liver every day for months, not ordinary liver intake.
  • A 1986 paper documented two chronic hypervitaminosis A cases; one patient had eaten up to about 100 g of beef liver daily for 8–9 years and also used a vitamin A supplement. [21]
  • A much more extreme recent case involved a 37-year-old man eating up to 17 kg of beef liver per week and developing hypervitaminosis A liver disease. [22]
  • Excess preformed vitamin A can cause peeling skin, headache, vomiting, muscle pain, liver injury, and fetal harm in pregnancy. Carrots can turn skin orange through beta-carotene, but conversion to active vitamin A is regulated and is much less efficient than obtaining preformed vitamin A from animal foods.
  • In Barclay, Foster, and Sommer's measles trial, 180 children were randomized; 6 of 88 receiving two 200,000-IU vitamin A doses died versus 12 of 92 controls. [23]
  • Hussey and Klein then studied 189 children with severe measles in South Africa; 2 deaths occurred in the vitamin A group versus 10 in the control group after a total 400,000 IU dose. [24]

Oxalates and "oxalate dumping"

  • Sally K. Norton's "oxalate dumping" theory says long-term high-oxalate foods create tissue stores that are released after those foods are removed, producing rashes, grainy stools, burning urine, depression, and joint pain; the hypothesis is unpersuasive because it is set up to dismiss normal blood or urine oxalate measurements.
  • Blood and urine oxalate measurements can detect genuine excess. Kidney failure causes tissue accumulation, and after a functioning kidney transplant urinary oxalate is initially high and then falls rapidly as retained oxalate is cleared. [25]
  • In people tested specifically for suspected "oxalate dumping," urinary oxalate was not detected in any case.
  • Vague symptoms attributed to dumping deserve symptom-specific investigation. Standard urine testing detects only about one-third of known uropathogens, so a negative routine culture does not exclude every urinary pathogen. [26]
  • Poor concentration or fatigue warrants evaluation for issues such as B12 or iron deficiency, inflammation, infection, and other causes appropriate to the symptom, without assuming dumping.
  • Oxalate itself can cause genuine disease: calcium oxalate is a common kidney-stone component, genetic hyperoxaluria can increase hepatic oxalate production, and severe oxalate excess can deposit in tissues and joints.
  • The old advice to manage oxalate stones simply by drinking more water while continuing high-oxalate foods makes little sense.
  • Fat malabsorption is an important mechanism in genuine oxalate pathology: unabsorbed fat binds calcium, leaving less calcium to bind oxalate, and intestinal oxalate absorption can rise from roughly 5–10% to above 30%; fecal fat testing can help identify the problem. [27]

ZEUS, inflammation, infection, and atherosclerosis

  • Novo Nordisk's ZEUS trial used a monoclonal antibody to suppress the IL-6 pathway and lower CRP, testing the idea that reducing inflammation would reduce cardiovascular events. [28]
  • The trial lowered inflammatory signaling but did not reduce heart attacks, strokes, or cardiovascular death; serious infections were more frequent, and only company topline results were available at the time of the episode. [28]
  • Association is not causation. Inflammation in coronary disease can be part of the immune response to infection, so suppressing that response does not necessarily remove the underlying cause.
  • In a 2006 paper, Ott and colleagues recovered 38 atherosclerotic plaque specimens with a cutting catheter and found bacterial DNA in all 38, while control vessels had none. [29]
  • Coronary artery disease and atherosclerosis are infectious diseases, with inflammation acting like a firefighter at the scene rather than the fire itself.
  • Corticosteroids can suppress inflammation and reduce symptoms while increasing susceptibility to infections and cancers, illustrating the difference between suppressing an immune response and removing what triggered it.
  • Chronic infections, including fungal infections, can provoke immune cross-reactivity against similar host tissues and may contribute causally to autoimmune disease.

Hypoglycemia, protein, and ketones

  • Hypoglycemia can be dangerous, especially for people using insulin, so insulin-managed diabetes requires medical supervision rather than casual dietary experimentation.
  • On a theoretical dietary basis, protein can support glucose through gluconeogenesis. In a 2023 pilot, subjects exercised in the afternoon and 50 g of whey protein roughly doubled glucagon and raised average glucose from 5.9 to 7.8 mmol/L versus water. [30]
  • Protein has a longer glucose effect than carbohydrate because gluconeogenesis unfolds over hours, so protein before bed could theoretically smooth a later nocturnal low without producing only a short glucose spike.
  • Tracer work found that about one-fifth of ingested protein carbon can enter circulating glucose over the following hours. [31]
  • The usual Australian biochemical cutoff is below 3.5 mmol/L, but keto-adapted people can have lower glucose without hypoglycemic symptoms because the brain can use ketones; symptoms such as sweating, tremor, nausea, and intense hunger matter clinically.
  • Longstanding poorly controlled diabetes can blunt awareness of low glucose, and beta-blockers can also mask warning symptoms, so low readings in those settings need more caution.
  • George Cahill's fasting work is recalled as showing people fasted for weeks, entered starvation ketosis, then received insulin and remained clinically well even as glucose approached about 1 mmol/L; the accompanying ketone fall was taken as evidence that the brain was relying heavily on ketones.
  • The brain is only about 2% of body mass but uses roughly 20% of total energy, making it especially vulnerable to metabolic dysfunction; dementia is increasingly called "type 3 diabetes," which is a topic for another episode.

References

  1. [04:10] Biological effects of a diet of soy protein rich in isoflavones on the menstrual cycle of premenopausal women — https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/60.3.333
  2. [05:16] Exposure of infants to phyto-oestrogens from soy-based infant formula — https://doi.org/10.1016/S0140-6736(96)09480-9
  3. [06:31] A Longitudinal Study of Estrogen-Responsive Tissues and Hormone Concentrations in Infants Fed Soy Formula — https://doi.org/10.1210/jc.2017-02249
  4. [07:01] Prepubertal Gynecomastia Linked to Lavender and Tea Tree Oils — https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa064725
  5. [09:38] Occupational exposure of cashiers to Bisphenol A via thermal paper: urinary biomonitoring study — https://doi.org/10.1007/s00420-016-1132-8
  6. [09:55] Transfer of bisphenol A from thermal printer paper to the skin — https://doi.org/10.1007/s00216-010-3936-9
  7. [11:31] Food packaging and bisphenol A and bis(2-ethyhexyl) phthalate exposure: findings from a dietary intervention — https://doi.org/10.1289/ehp.1003170
  8. [12:54] Widespread Sexual Disruption in Wild Fish — https://doi.org/10.1021/es9710870
  9. [13:28] Reproductive disruption in fish downstream from an estrogenic wastewater effluent — https://doi.org/10.1021/es0720661
  10. [13:34] Demasculinization of male fish by wastewater treatment plant effluent — https://doi.org/10.1016/j.aquatox.2011.02.007
  11. [14:02] Pernicious Pesticide: Atrazine's Growing Threats to Drinking Water, Rivers, People, and Wildlife — https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/campaigns/pesticides_reduction/atrazine/Pernicious-Pesticide-report.html
  12. [14:21] Hermaphroditic, demasculinized frogs after exposure to the herbicide atrazine at low ecologically relevant doses — https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.082121499
  13. [14:52] Atrazine induces complete feminization and chemical castration in male African clawed frogs (Xenopus laevis) — https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0909519107
  14. [16:08] The China Study — https://www.benbellavegan.com/book/the-china-study/
  15. [16:26] Diet, lifestyle, and the etiology of coronary artery disease: the Cornell China Study — https://doi.org/10.1016/S0002-9149(98)00718-8
  16. [18:21] The China Study: A Formal Analysis and Response — https://deniseminger.com/2010/08/03/the-china-study-a-formal-analysis-and-response/
  17. [20:02] Can lifestyle changes reverse coronary heart disease? The Lifestyle Heart Trial — https://doi.org/10.1016/0140-6736(90)91656-U
  18. [24:12] Comparison of Physician Visual Assessment With Quantitative Coronary Angiography in Assessment of Stenosis Severity in China — https://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2017.7821
  19. [25:12] Optimal Medical Therapy with or without PCI for Stable Coronary Disease — https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa070829
  20. [25:12] Initial Invasive or Conservative Strategy for Stable Coronary Disease — https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJMoa1915922
  21. [28:47] Hepatic and dermatologic manifestations of chronic hypervitaminosis A in adults. Report of two cases — https://doi.org/10.1016/0002-9343(86)90726-6
  22. [29:20] Histological Findings of Hypervitaminosis A Liver Disease — https://doi.org/10.1016/j.gastha.2024.08.010
  23. [31:23] Vitamin A supplements and mortality related to measles: a randomised clinical trial — https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.294.6567.294
  24. [31:41] A Randomized, Controlled Trial of Vitamin A in Children with Severe Measles — https://doi.org/10.1056/NEJM199007193230304
  25. [34:18] Effect of renal transplantation on serum oxalate and urinary oxalate excretion — https://doi.org/10.1159/000188014
  26. [35:35] The Clinical Urine Culture: Enhanced Techniques Improve Detection of Clinically Relevant Microorganisms — https://doi.org/10.1128/JCM.00044-16
  27. [38:23] Pathophysiology and Treatment of Enteric Hyperoxaluria — https://doi.org/10.2215/CJN.08000520
  28. [39:39] Novo Nordisk provides update on the ZEUS phase 3 trial in people with ASCVD, CKD and inflammation — https://www.novonordisk.com/news-and-media/news-and-ir-materials/news-details.html?id=916587
  29. [43:08] Detection of diverse bacterial signatures in atherosclerotic lesions of patients with coronary heart disease — https://doi.org/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.105.579979
  30. [48:18] Protein Ingestion in Reducing the Risk of Late-Onset Post-Exercise Hypoglycemia: A Pilot Study in Adolescents and Youth with Type 1 Diabetes — https://doi.org/10.3390/nu15030543
  31. [49:39] Glucose appearance rate following protein ingestion in normal subjects — https://doi.org/10.1080/07315724.1992.10718270
top 1 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] psud@aussie.zone 3 points 2 days ago

Interesting that people are unlikely to experience oxalate dumping. I wonder what it is that people are attributing to oxalates