this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2026
31 points (100.0% liked)

GenZedong

5232 readers
59 users here now

This is a Dengist community in favor of Bashar al-Assad with no information that can lead to the arrest of Hillary Clinton, our fellow liberal and queen. This community is not ironic. We are Marxists-Leninists.

See this GitHub page for a collection of sources about socialism, imperialism, and other relevant topics.

This community is for posts about Marxism and geopolitics (including shitposts to some extent). Serious posts can be posted here or in /c/GenZhou. Reactionary or ultra-leftist cringe posts belong in /c/shitreactionariessay or /c/shitultrassay respectively.

We have a Matrix homeserver and a Matrix space. See this thread for more information. If you believe the server may be down, check the status on status.elara.ws.

Rules:

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.

Matrix homeserver and space
Theory discussion group on /c/theory@lemmygrad.ml
Find theory on ProleWiki, marxists.org, Anna's Archive

^image\ source^

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] KrupskayaPraxis@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I love how the football world cup unified everybody in hating Argentina

[–] SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

It's also kinda sad because without Argentina it turns into a regular European Cup tournament again

[–] KrupskayaPraxis@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 hours ago

Indeed, that's why I hope they make the semifinals, but then I want Spain or France to demolish them

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 5 hours ago)

When or where did the Israelis strike or attack the communist organizations in Iran when this war started?

[–] zedcell@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Got rejected from a job I applied for in a field I've worked in for years, asked for feedback and was told I missed a piece of essential criteria which I had definitely covered twice in my application.

Immediately responded with the excerpts and am awaiting their excuses about why the two examples I gave were not good enough evidence.

The kicker is this is a gov adjacent role in the UK and we have the "Disability Confident" scheme that lets disabled candidates get a guaranteed interview when you hit all the essential criteria. I opted in for that as a disabled person and conveniently (and this happens a lot!! At least 3 other times to me) I apparently don't hit the essential criteria for a role I've done for like 7 years at a higher level than what I'm applying for, with examples that have gotten me jobs for roles at a higher level than the ones I'm applying for.

I love this period of economic stagnancy it's great fun 🫠

[–] chesmotorcycle@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

It definitely sounds like those companies are discriminating against disabled people. I wonder if you'd have better luck not telling them?

[–] zedcell@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 12 hours ago* (last edited 12 hours ago) (1 children)

I think it's less purposeful than direct discrimination, the application should have no sign I've ticked the box for the disability scheme, but I think that their screening process is just really poor.

I reckon they're either using AI to batch shortlist and don't really care about when it makes mistakes, or their shortlisters are having to wade through so many applications they're not giving enough attention to each one and incorrectly scoring them. This then has the downstream effect of being indirectly discriminating, because they actually have to justify what essential criteria I have missed to deny me an interview, but for anyone else accidentally missed during shortlisting they can just lie and say they didn't make the cut because there were so many strong candidates.

Having chatted with people recruiting in this area before, they're getting like 500-1000 applicants for each role so their shortlisting has had to speed up to keep the process to a sane timeline. This has pushed them to make far more mistakes than I've ever had to deal with during the shortlisting phase. I used to get an interview almost every single time I applied for a role, and would perform well enough to be in the top 2 or 3 candidates if I failed to get the role. Now I'm just being screened out at the application phase.

[–] chesmotorcycle@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 5 hours ago

Gotcha. So with the extreme application volume, they're certainly not reviewing even most of them thoroughly. I haven't done it often, but apparently feeding your CV/resume and the job description to AI can help if they're using an HRIS, in case you haven't tried that already. Best of luck, comrade!

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 23 hours ago

economic stagnancy

Seems more like economic free fall.

But also, my sympathies, that is rough.

[–] TabularTuxedo@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

I love Rust a lot but I wish it wasn't so hard to compile its compiler.

Speaking of languages, imma try learning spanish. it's kind of embarrassing for a brazilian to not be able to talk to comrades in latam.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

So I was watching an ASMR video based on Helldivers 2 and as it goes on, I'm gradually going, "Wait a minute, this sounds like fascistic, imperialist stuff." Then it starts reminding me of Starship Troopers.

When it's done, I look up the game and sure enough, there are articles saying it's heavily influenced by Starship Troopers. I've never actually watched Starship Troopers or read the book, nor have I played Helldivers, but I guess I picked up enough in passing about it and the themes aren't exactly subtle.

[–] pyromaiden@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago (2 children)

The books were unironic fascist propaganda by a "libertarian" who idolized the military.

The movie was made by a guy who read the book, clocked it for what it was, and decided to make fun of its ideology instead.

Helldivers is a much less subtle mockery of the same ideas.

[–] asdasd201@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

The movie was made by a guy who read the book, clocked it for what it was, and decided to make fun of its ideology instead.

Very based thing to do. Did the writer sued the director?

[–] pyromaiden@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 hours ago

Heinlein was dead by the time the movie was made. But he likely would've hated it lol.

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Oh, interesting.

[–] SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Boy do I love public transport. I spent my day riding the Brussels Subway today and it was so much fun.

[–] jefftist@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago

Living in Seattle I often found myself missing work to just ride around on LINK and the bus system all over the place. I completely understand.

[–] cenarius@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago

World is more red than black today. Hopefully tomorrow, & the day after,

[–] Marat@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 day ago

All I'm gonna say is that the residents of Clackton have the chance to do the funniest thing in the world and if they dont vote for supreme leader count binface I will tell Putin to nuke them

[–] SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

We're entering the second heat wave but it won't be as bad as the previous of a week ago

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

It was almost 33 at 23:00, last night. It's been so hot and humid during days that I felt cold, at 26.6 inside.

[–] SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

That's horrible. A bit more to the south and it's still cooking in France and southern Europe. I saw someone from Lyon say it has been 30+ degrees for weeks now. Absolutely horrible.

We had a week of 28-30 degrees indoor at night and it drove me nuts.

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

Yeah, that's not fun. I feel really bad for Africa, Asia, Cuba, Mexico , Venezuela, and other locations whose people are suffering worse, especially places whose water and other critical infrastructure is destroyed by fascist nations specifically targeting critical infrastructure.

[–] Marat@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 day ago (2 children)

This might be a bit naive, and I'm not the best micro-economist, but would it be feasible for someone/sime country to basically make an industry out of recycling and composting? As in, they'll pay a small price to import what people were already throwing away [including higher end things like electronics and vehicles and airplanes] and recycle the raw materials out of them, and then make a vertical integration that way. I.e, a country doesn't have domestic aluminium deposits so it imports recyclable waste that it then takes the aluminum out of.

Same with industrial composting. Import trash, probably maybe even simply taking it for free from countries with landfill charges, take out what isn't compostable and just pump out fertilizer from that instead of importing it. Idk, I think i was just inspired reading about how Japan got most of its iron/steel during ww2 from American scrap metal

[–] ComradeSalad@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The cost to benefit of expending the resources necessary to extract and purify the recycled materials is infinitely more expensive then simply importing or buying the raw material outright.

Not to mention that no one would be willing to send you only “good trash”, and you face the daunting challenge of sorting through megalithic quantities of useless trash for a few paltry recyclable materials. You additionally face the issue of now needing to dispose of the massive quantities of leftover waste with no recycling potential.

In some extraordinarily desperate fringes of the globe there are communities of people who do make a sustenance living performing such recycling, however the output is utterly tiny and non-viable for expansion.

The example of Japan prior to WW2, the scrap metal the US was sending Japan was fairly expensive and seen as a viable resource. The Japanese just needed to spend the time sorting the various metals. Further, such imports were a desperation move as the metals imported were of varying grades, types, purities; and so forth, making refinement and usage difficult, but for a country stuck in a perpetual war economy desperate for resources, something is better than nothing. However, replicating that system within a globalist world makes little sense beyond extreme siege examples.

[–] jefftist@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Excellent idea -- but currently it is more expensive to ship reusable materials than it is to bury it, burn it, or send it to a poor country in the global south where it ends up in a river then makes its way to the great garbage patch in the Pacific. We people de-prioritize some really important stuff. You're right -- but the focus has to shift economically away from endless money printing and ever-increasing profits. We need economics that focus around human need first. Reward companies for putting people first, rather than capital. Until that happens, or I don't know -- luxury communism under fusion energy happens first -- (you know, where scarcity basically disappears at scale because we can suddenly apply energy to big projects like global water access via desalinization and vertical farms in low-food-density areas like the desert, etc.) -- we probably will continue to be under the thumb of this shitty system. Nobody wants to fight the powerful. Not really.

[–] Marat@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Sorry for posting here a lot. But I was just thinking about it, it's so goddamn sad that Indonesia never had a revolution. I think it's even sadder that even after the new order fell thay the PKI still hasn't been unbanned and the left is still essentially prosecuted. Honestly, a communist Indonesia would've been beautiful

[–] pyromaiden@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I've been reading The Jakarta Method. It's very sad that neither Sukarno nor the PKI could rise to meet the moment. Mao told them both explicitly to arm up and prepare for violence but they were over confident.

The lesson here is to be armed and willing to fight because the reactionaries will kill you.

[–] chesmotorcycle@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

It's a world-historic tragedy. Indonesia has the fourth largest population, but it hasn't recovered from the trauma to this day. How differently things could have gone in that whole region.

[–] SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 2 days ago (3 children)

Friendly reminder that Tom Homan, a key figure within ICE, has been around since the Obama days and is only now seen as a problem by libs. He even got a medal given to him by Obama for 'his effectivness with deportations'.

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 hours ago

Caitlin Johnstone said Bernie was wrong, we've had ten years to see it, and .world are losing their collective mind.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] DornerStan@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 days ago (5 children)

At this point I'm fairly convinced Platner was a psyop or something along those lines (not that I hold strongly to this opinion, since he isn't in my state and not worth the time to do much research and analysis).

My question is, what is an ML's place in this whole ordeal, or more generally when it comes to spectacularized electoralism? Speaking primarily of how we engage with (or sidestep) the discourse surrounding it, since obviously I don't think our finite energy should usually be spent actively participating in electoral politics.

I'm pretty unconvinced of the utility of the contrarian-leaning anti-electoralist stance in the discourse. It seems better at fostering a feeling of superiority towards libs than radicalizing them. Which is counterproductive to our usual understanding that electoralism's failures should be radicalizing events.

But a lot of people seemed to fall for the Platner thing. And I worry it risks shattering a lot of potential ideological pipelines. His problems seemed so obvious that it's hard not to outgroup anyone that defended him but at the same time I'm not sure that's productive. I dunno.

Overall I'm not satisfied with anti-electoralist discourse in general. It seems mostly reactive to and contained within manufactured discourse, unable to transcend it or really convince anyone of anything, in my experience. Personally I've moved more towards a passive optimism (in how I talk with libs, not internal beliefs), not shitting on people for feeling hopeful about Mamdani and the like, but trying to gently mention the limitations of elected individuals within capitalism. Doesn't really work for a (in my opinion) deliberate poison pill like Platner.

I think there are two essences within the pro-Platner left/libleft. One is an underlying imperial-colonial (sub)consciousness, where non-white people and people outside the imperial core are implicitly valued less. The other is an (in my opinion) unrefined and misdirected pragmatism that views him as a lesser evil and sees criticisms as attacks from the establishment. The former needs to be excised and eliminated without mercy. The latter is salvageable and needs to be engaged with, I think. Because when it comes down to it, revolutionaries very often have to utilize "evil" people, and we should be very careful giving up any advantages we can muster. There's a massive difference between tactically using them and investing time and energy into electing them into positions of power, of course.

And the two essences aren't distinct or discernible, so it's not like we can easily draw a line between people who supported a murdering rapist for "good" versus bad reasons.

To reiterate: I dunno. Every talking point pro or against gives me the feeling of getting played, getting trapped by the spectacle or manufactured discourse, rereading a scripted dialogue that's already been read a thousand times. But it's too late to just tell people to stop talking about it.

[–] GreatSquare@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 15 hours ago

My question is, what is an ML’s place in this whole ordeal, or more generally when it comes to spectacularized electoralism?

Basically, the ML take is "If you fell for this bullshit, don't fall for it again the next time."

It is meant to be a spectacle: Like a sport. Two teams. Lots of news about the ins and outs. Personalities and celebrity worship.

Any tiny wins or gains can be reversed by the next election until the system itself is thrown out.

[–] cenarius@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 day ago

I think Platner is awesome. It's like a thermobaric weapon went off in a private party & every compatible left figure came spilling out holding their guts into their torso, leaving us to ask "why are these people hanging out"

Oh you're looking to convince these people? Can't help, sorry. I only want to help Americans who are exactly like me

[–] amemorablename@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

FWIW, and keeping in mind this is only my personal experience with transitioning from lib to ML, I distinctly remember someone online who helped move me further left after Bernie faceplanted and their MO went something like: Being gently understanding of why people are supporting Bernie, but also being plainly a communist and talking about communism in detail, trying to educate people further, explaining why they don't think Bernie is enough, etc.

I think there were some others I encountered who acted similarly to this too. In other words, there was no impression of condescension or superiority, but of being understanding of how someone would arrive at the position of supporting Bernie, while also being firmly not a soc dem.

The end result was that when Bernie failed, they were still there to pick up the pieces and explain what went wrong and why, with someone who was even more willing to listen to them now. In a way, I guess what I'm describing is what we talk about sometimes with regards to building relationships with people. These do not necessarily have to be close friendships. Even having a relationship of respect as acquaintances is worth something.

During an electoral campaign, true believers in the bougie electoral system can get swept up in the energy of the campaign and stave off doubt in order to push for a win. In the aftermath of a failed campaign, I think it is easier to get through to people, so long as they see you as someone who may be worth listening to.

[–] zedcell@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago

Isn't this broadly Marx's original position on the organic spontaneous working class energy?

I.e. what you want and are fighting for is correct and just, but here are the limitations of doing it in the way you're trying to - you should do it this way instead because of x y z.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

On the topic of electoralism, the ML position is simple: it is useful to engage tactically with electoralism, so long as it is done under the banner of an actual communist/socialist party. The real psyop is the DSA itself, as a pipeline into the Democratic party. The real psyop is "lesser evil-ism". As for Platner, i haven't really followed that situation because it was always deeply uninteresting and irrelevant in my opinion, but if the whole Nazi thing and having served as a murderer for hire for imperialism was not a deal breaker for the socdem/demsoc radlibs who supported him prior, why should this latest scandal be? That was far worse than him being a drunk rapist. The whole DSA project is fundamentally misconceived to begin with. The point of socialists engaging with electoralism is to build and expand the power base of their own independent party, not to attract votes to a neoliberal imperialist party. As it stands it's all just a different name for "Vote Democrat". Platner, Mamdani, all the same because the outcome is the same: leftists getting tricked into campaigning for Democrats. I thought the US left had learned their lesson after Bernie and the "Squad" betrayed them. Apparently not.

[–] DornerStan@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago

I don't disagree but my focus is a step outside the ML theory position, on the ML tactical or agitprop position. We know we think those things, but how are we choosing to engage or disengage with people who don't think those things or aren't advanced enough in their radicalization/education to understand or be receptive to those ideas? It seems the broad unorganized left (whatever we want to call it) still isn't inoculated against this kind of poison pill (I guess we'll better understand the degree to which once we can fully see the Platner fallout). But I don't think the ML left has enough cultural production/influence to take an explicitly hostile or exclusionary stance towards the broad unorganized left.

No, I'll word that differently. I don't know if the explicitly hostile or exclusionary stance serves us best. Or if that's even how it should be labeled/categorized.

Is an explicit schism between the people who fell for it and those that didn't useful for pipelining? Is pipelining even a real process that we should care about?

Another angle to it that I'm having a hard time putting into words. In game theory, there are often situations where a strategy is the correct one assuming all players are also playing to maximize value, but becomes worse if another player is playing poorly. So in a three player game, player 1 might play "optimally" and lose to player 3 because player 2's incorrect play changed the equilibrium.

Shitty way of trying to explain the concept but here the first-order optimum might be for us (player 1) to outright reject electoralists. But because so much of the unorganized left (player 2) swallowed the poison pill, the original strategy may no longer be optimal. If we continue to play without exploring the possibility of a second-order optimum, we risk handing a win to player 3 (bourgeoisie, fash, institutional dems, whatever). But it's possible the first one is still optimal. Again, this is how we publically engage with discourse, not about what we personally believe.

Trying to process that abstract nonsense into concrete particulars, say some co-worker is excited about Platner or watches Hasan or whatever is currently an outgroup signifier that I don't keep up with. Is the process to sidestep the issue because it's a psyop, to nip it in the bud and correct them, to develop a tactical response that hopefully leads towards self-radicalization? What about for somebody in a mutual aid group? A family member or friend? Someone in your political party? A media influencer?

The in-group/out-group lines are getting drawn on social media of course but I've really grown tired of them and how either disconnected or parasitic they can be towards real-life organizing. My impulse is to sidestep spectacle, but since I'm not the whole of the ML left nor the unorganized left, my personal impulse isn't necessarily what would work best if all ML's decided to do it.

[–] Solas@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 day ago

I absolutely get the psyop theory, and have been leaning that way myself when I consider Platner. That said, I never considered him much because I'm also nowhere near Maine.

I would see posts about him where people are legitimately yearning for the reformist policies that would lesson the tension the workers of the imperial core are under, and I desperately want to grow that inkling of class consciousness. Unfortunately, it was obvious that these people are still too trapped in capitalism-as-default to seriously imagine a real alternative.

To me, American Exceptionalism (tm) is still the dominant narrative, even within the movement that is looking at Platner and Mamdani.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solid recommendation for how to actually address this with people beyond the tender prodding you've already illustrated. Mostly, I just wanted to reply to tell you that I definitely understand that feeling/though.

Stay strong.

[–] Makan@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 day ago (4 children)
load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›