this post was submitted on 09 Dec 2023

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I'm starting to see some serious downsides to being able to see who downvotes you. (kbin.social)

submitted 11 months ago by billothekid2@kbin.social to c/kbinMeta@kbin.social

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A few days ago I downvoted someone's comment, and the next day I happened to notice every single comment I've ever made had at least one downvote. All from the person I dared to downvote the ONE time. I straight up asked why they did it, and they seem to think I'm an "obvious" troll account that "apparently just exist to downvote other people". I assure you I'm no troll account, and ironically don't really downvote all that often.
I know the topic of public downvotes has been discussed before, but I never used to care either way. Now I'm kinda leaning in the "I don't like it" side. Honestly, I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel a little offended, maybe even attacked. Also, there goes all my imaginary internet points. Lol
Has anyone else had something like this happen to them, or am I just unlucky?

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[–] ThatOneKirbyMain2568@kbin.social 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

While that's definitely a notable downside, I think the upsides outweigh it.

For one, being able to see upvotes & downvotes seems to have made a lot of people a bit more thoughtful with handing them out. This obviously isn't the case for everyone — there's still a good bit of downvoting people for disagreeing with the hivemind — but I and others have observed that downvote quality is a lot better here on kbin.social, and I think that vote visibility is a big part of that.

It's also just transparency on kbin.social's part. If votes federate, anyone can set up an instance to view your votes or just go to one that shows them. Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there's nothing stopping them. Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes on the fediverse can be accessed by the public, and I have no issue with that.

EDITː Removed a stray asterisk

[–] livus@kbin.social 24 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (2 children)

@ThatOneKirbyMain2568

Kbin.social is being transparent about the fact that votes* on the fediverse can be accessed by the public

This is important. The kind of petty, persevering trolls that @billothekid2 is worried about are exactly the kind of people who'd be likely to look up who downvoted them.

Kbin just makes it clear to us that this info is out there. Anonymous voting isn't possible in federated social media.

[–] CoffeeAddict@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Also, even if they wanted to I don’t think voting could be made anonymous at this point, either. I’m not a programmer in any sense, but I imagine it would totally break federation. Total anonymity would probably need to be a feature from the start.

Kbin at least puts it out there so you know it’s not totally anonymous. Sometimes I wonder how many lemmy users are unaware of this because the software doesn’t make it apparent.

[–] JowlesMcGee@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago

Actually, our downvotes don't federate out, and we don't get incoming downvotes either, so you could totally make them private within an instance since that information doesn't leave the instance anyway.

Not advocating one way or the other, just pointing out that it technically could be an option.

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[–] CoffeeAddict@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago

Someone could literally make a website listing downvotes throughout the fediverse, and there's nothing stopping them.

This is why I agree that it should be shown upfront. A lot of people won’t like it, but I think users should be somewhat aware that it’s all technically visible.

Someone is gonna make an instance that does exactly this at some point. It will be inevitable as the fediverse matures.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 21 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Didn't you just see the upside too, though? You can see who's downvoting all your comments and call them out on it. Someone could downvote stalk you on Reddit (quite sure that has happened to me before) and it would be invisible and unprovable.

[–] billothekid2@kbin.social 14 points 11 months ago (2 children)

True, but if they hadn't seen it was me that downvoted them in the first place, they wouldn't know who to stalk, and I wouldn't have to call anyone out at all. Really though, I can still see both sides here. I'm just bitter it happened to me. Lol

[–] livus@kbin.social 21 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

@billothekid2 I'm with @FaceDeer on this, it's way better to know you have a Downvote Fairy than to just think no one appreciates your comments.

Back on reddit it happens a lot, but the targets are more likely to feel discouraged or think the person they are replying to is the one downvoting them.

Besides, I had someone doing this to me here on kbin for a couple of days and they are not someone I ever downvoted or had even argued with.

I asked them to stop and they downvoted me one last time and then stopped. I don't think they'd realized I can see them.

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

[–] sik0fewl@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago

So the cause isn't that people can see your downvotes, it's that some people are just dicks.

Words to remember.

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[–] livus@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago (1 children)

@FaceDeer the super annoying thing on reddit would be when I was having a polite discussion with someone and a third party came along and silently downvoted everything they said to me.

Then they'd get all annoyed assuming it was me who did it.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

A "fun" experience from Reddit that I'm glad is impossible here on kbin is when I'm in an argument with someone and they would insta-downvote every response I made to them, then vociferously deny that they were doing it even when it was basically impossible for it to be otherwise (for example if we were in a days-old thread nobody else was paying attention to and the downvote was happening within a minute or two of me posting - too fast to even have read the comment).

On a related note, I'm pleased that blocking someone doesn't prevent them from responding to your comments here. The "get the 'last word' in and then block me so I couldn't answer" pattern was even more annoying, since karma was meaningless anyway but the block disrupted the flow of informative debate if other people were following it too. In such situations I'd edit the last comment I'd made to mention what had happened, at least. Hope that shamed a few folks at least a little bit.

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[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, trolls really care about being “called out”. Trolls can’t stand negative attention, so be sure to tell lots of people who they are and what they did!

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

Assuming you're being sarcastic and mean the opposite, this hasn't been my experience, actually. Just like with @livus, above, I called out a downvote-stalker once who'd been following me around and when I described how I was seeing his downvote pattern he instantly vanished. In my experience the "downvote warriors" are a cowardly bunch, they love being able to throw punches without being seen to throw punches. Once you make it clear to them that everyone can see what they're doing they crumple under scrutiny.

The trolls you're talking about are the kind that love to get into an argument with you. That's quite different.

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Okay. Yeah, I was being sarcastic, but now I see we had different kinds of trolls in mind. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago

No problem. And I can imagine that there might be some out there who would indeed be gleeful about being called out for downvoting because they're just that deep into the "raging asshole" state that any negative attention is giving them the dopamine hit they crave. But I suspect that kind of troll is going to be blatant enough that he'll get blocked or banned by most places worth hanging out in anyway.

I probably shouldn't admit it, but one of my favourite ways of dealing with a raging asshole on Reddit was to be impeccably polite to them until they blew their stack badly enough while trying to provoke me that I could report them. :) I'd only do that if they were clearly already unredeemable, though.

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[–] muse@kbin.social 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Counterpoint: it makes it even more apparent when bigoted alt right trolls like AnotherAttorney post and we can see they're the ones upvoting and boosting their own terrible posts, and ridicule them til they quit or switch sock puppets

[–] canis_majoris@lemmy.ca 13 points 11 months ago (4 children)

stop caring about votes like they mean anything.

[–] billothekid2@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

I don't. That's why I called them imaginary internet points. Lol. My point was about the fact that you can see who downvotes you.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If you didn't care you wouldn't have posted.

[–] muse@kbin.social 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

If he didn't care he wouldn't have downvoted you just now either

[–] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 points 11 months ago

That's hilarious. Another upside

[–] livus@kbin.social 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

@billothekid2 this exchange raises another point. You and @snooggums downvoting each other here seem to be engaging in "downvote-to-disagree" with each other.

I don't see nearly as much of this on kbin as I do on, say, lemmy.world and I'm sure it's because of our more transparent voting system.

I'm personally not a fan because I think it's vaguely hostile and discourages open discussion.

[–] be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social 7 points 11 months ago (2 children)

FWIW, I usually downvote if the person is a dick. Often I also disagree with them, but not always. If you are dragging the conversation down (in some way other than having an unpopular opinion) you get a downvote.

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[–] FaceDeer@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Same, generally speaking when I'm writing a comment in order to disagree with someone I want that other person's comment to be more visible to other readers. That way they can read it, see my response, and realize how wrong the original comment was and how right I am. :) I save my downvotes for comments that are so wrong they're not worth a response.

I'll even sometimes downvote a comment, ponder for a moment, and then remove my downvote and write a response instead.

[–] livus@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

The way I see it, downvotes = "I wish this comment didn't exist" and doing it to punish someone for having a discussion with us is weird, since social media is all about discussions, and exchanging disagreeing points of view is interesting.

[–] snooggums@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I am downvoting because complaining about downvotes while saying they don't matter is hypocritical and not a discussion made in good faith. Just wanted to see if they voted in response, showing their hypocrisy.

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[–] can@sh.itjust.works 13 points 11 months ago

This is an obvious downside. I've experienced a similar thing but being a lemmy user I don't know who I pissed off. Which is for the best. It was a one off. Ignore it and chances are this one will be too.

[–] bedrooms@kbin.social 9 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Somewhat off topic, but I'm tired of people who can't argue properly.

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[–] livus@kbin.social 8 points 11 months ago

@billothekid2 honestly, it's not an uncommon phenomenon, it has nothing to do with seeing your downvotes.

Over the years on reddit, where votes are anonymous, I would sometimes notice all my comments being downvoted (usually after some kind of altercation, my favourite was the guy who singled me out for criticizing Margaret Thatcher... hardly a hot take).

In fact iirc reddit had to change its interface so that voting on comments from a person's profile page doesn't change their comment count.

Some people are just petty. I think it's better to at least know when it's happening so I can avoid that person.

[–] Damaskox@kbin.social 6 points 11 months ago

I'm okay with someone not agreeing with me. I'm okay with someone downvoting me.
Someone downvoting everything I have and will ever make? Well, there's a magazine I'd love to get more folks in and this behavior could cripple it badly, since I get next-to-no votes in there from others so it's already difficult to get more eyes on it. But other than that I think I get more agreements so I wouldn't care that much.

Therefore I'm happy that there's an upvote and downvote (and a reputation) system.

[–] uphillbothways@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

I don't see an issue here.

try to explain your downvotes, or, better yet, voice your disagreement and have a discussion without relying on downvotes to express yourself. Use your words.
when you feel it necessary and that using your words isn't working, upvote/boost everyone but the person in question. Realize downvotes don't really do what you'd hoped and are a poor crutch and means of expression. Elevate what you do agree with. Worry less about what you don't.
just don't care about internet points. As others have said and covered extensively.

Hopefully, what remains is that conversations are important. Having an outlet for undescribed/unformed/ambiguous disagreement/dissent really doesn't add anything to anything for anyone. Making a point or saying something correct is more valuable than shooting down those you find to be incorrect. And, ultimately, it's not just what you think that matters. The consensus of the group and the conversation that gets them there, the experience and the interchange and the community itself are all much more valuable than the destination of a single conversation.

Edit: (And, for the record, while I disagree with your assessment, I've boosted and upvoted your thread, because I think the conversations being had here are valuable and worth seeing by more people.)

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 4 points 11 months ago (2 children)

The same thing happened to me. The downvotes don’t bother me nearly as much as knowing that trolls can stalk us like that. It’s creepy. That’s the real issue.

Everyone telling you not to care about downvotes is missing the point.

[–] canis_majoris@lemmy.ca 6 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (3 children)

It doesn't change the behavior if you can verify who did it or not. It literally doesn't matter that you can see who downvoted you when it's always been the case that anybody can go into your history and downvote all of it.

How are you going to call viewing a post history on the public facing internet "stalking"?

Jesus you guys play some gymnastics up in your domes.

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[–] livus@kbin.social 5 points 11 months ago (1 children)

@magnetosphere but trolls stalk people anyway, I've had Downvote Fairies on reddit and kbin.

The kbin one wasn't even someone I'd downvoted.

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (1 children)

That’s even weirder. I’m sorry to hear that.

[–] livus@kbin.social 3 points 11 months ago (4 children)

@magnetosphere just the nature of the internet.

Sometimes people get weird bees in their bonnet. Personally I'd much rather know who it's coming from.

If I put a lot of effort into a comment or post and it gets downvoted by someone out of spite, I'd much rather know that's what happened than sit there wondering what's wrong with my post.

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[–] Dio@lemy.lol 4 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Is this really an issue for people. Lol.

[–] magnetosphere@kbin.social 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

You’re asking this in a thread where someone describes exactly how it’s an issue for them.

[–] canis_majoris@lemmy.ca 4 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Yeah but it's a non-issue, because they're describing a behavior that cannot be prohibited regardless of if you can see who did it or not. It's not like there's a hard archive timer on votes disallowing comments to be interacted with; people can go down the whole history of any of our accounts and downvote all of it.

It's literally a non-issue, this guy is freaking out because he can just see who did it, like it makes a difference. It's the ostrich syndrome, if you bury your head in the sand (can't verify) then it matters less.

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