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Neoliberalism now available in "progressive" color. (lemmy.ml)

submitted 3 weeks ago by geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml to c/twitter@lemmy.ml

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[–] SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

I'm all for giving aid to Palestine, but I think you are being a bit reactionary here.

Seriously, let's imagine that you had half a billion in military aid for Palestine ready to go. Who would you send it to?? What is this money actually being spent on?

The Palestinian people are effectively prisoners of Israel right now. If we just hand them a bunch of weapons, Israel will just go steal them. If we sent them tanks and shit, we'd also have to send soldiers trained to operate that equipment, support staff, etc... and then we're past the point of "sending aid" and we're just prosecuting a war with Israel on Palestine's behalf. Not that i'd be opposed to that, per se, but you see how that platform would be pretty much untenable and unelectable, right?

Ukraine is at war with Russia. Palestine is occupied by Israel. These are fundamentally different scenarios and we can't pretend they have the same solution, even if we wish they did.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

But this is a false dichotomy. The missile systems we send to Ukraine? They come with operators, often remote ones. They can't be used without US satellite feeds and recon. They require immense training and we send trainers. You think aid to Ukraine is just money? It's measured in money, but it's not like we send them money and they go to weapons store to buy more weapons in their way home from work. It's a full blown logistics operation. You think they just slap a FedEx sticker on a tank?

But also, Ukraine is not undergoing ethnic cleansing. As you said, it's in a war. Russia has stayed in a very small area of Ukraine that is predominantly inhabited by ethnic Russians. Russia does not make the demand for an apartheid regime, it does not have different laws for ethnic Ukrainians. It does not have an entire population that believes every Ukranian child is a valid military target because they will grow up to be terrorists. Palestine is being ethnically cleanses. Ukraine is being partially occupied in a war of attrition. There's a huge difference between these two phenomena.

[–] zealouscurmedgeon@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Russia has stayed in a very small area of Ukraine that is predominantly inhabited by ethnic Russians.

That "small" part is about 20% of Ukraine and they are only "staying" there because that's the limit of what the Russian army has been able to secure so far. Putin would be tap dancing in Lviv if the Russian army could take it.

While the war in Ukraine is not the same degree of tragedy we are seeing in Palestine, there are still issues with ethnically Ukrainian children being taken from their homes and ethnically Ukranian citizens being told they must either take up Russian passports/citizenship or leave. Forced migrations also count as genocide/ethnic cleansing.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago

Forced migration of Ukrainians from borderlands into central Ukraine is not genocide! Jesus, people will twist and turn to keep their moral high ground. Imagine if it was the other way around and Ukraine crossed the border and pushed Russians further into Russia and tell me if you think that would actually be genocide. It's a ridiculous proposition.

And it's made more ridiculous when you understand the history of how the border was defined. It would be like saying pushing the Mexican border North into Texas and then dsiplacing the Americans that live in South Texas into North Texas is ethnic cleansing. No it's not. It's a border dispute.

[–] SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

There's a huge difference between the two phenomena.

Exactly, and it's not liberalism to acknowledge those practical differences. Palestine needs its sovereignty acknowledged and enforced by an international coalition of countries willing to jointly oppose Israel's occupation using military force. That's a very different proposition than what we do when we send military aid to another country.

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

No, we're talking past each other. The sentence you quoted was not about defense, it was about your claim that Ukraine is being ethnically cleanses by Russia. It is not.

[–] SuperNovaStar@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Pretty sure I never said that, actually. You seem to have a very specific argument you want to have, and you'll read whatever you have to into what I say in order to have it, so I think I'm done here

[–] frisbird@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 weeks ago

It was in the image that you are replying to.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

Ukraine is at war with Russia. Palestine is occupied by Israel. These are fundamentally different scenarios and we can’t pretend they have the same solution, even if we wish they did.

The only difference is that Palestinians do not have an ally that is willing to save them militartily (except Yemen which can't do much), but the people of Donbas do. One genocide was stopped and the other was not, but both are real. I can guarantee you that if someone invaded Israel after october 2023 now all libs would be crying about "holocaust 2" or however hasbara would name the just war against Israel.

[–] RiverRock@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

The example I always use is that if China had stepped in on October 8, we would all be hearing nothing but the words "antisemetic Chinese imperialism" for years

[–] hamid@crazypeople.online 1 points 2 weeks ago

There is an ethnic cleansing happening in [sic] Ukraine

Really? In the Russian speaking, culturally Russian areas that are involved in the civil war where all the causalities are and where most of the people have evacuated to Russia from? Who exactly is being ethnically cleansed in Ukraine right now?