Yes, to an extent, but I don't think it has to do with grammar as much as pronunciation. Norwegian (bokmål) and danish are almost indistinguishable when written down, but spoken Danish is pronounced very weirdly (a lot of swallowed and mumbled consonants that causes it to sound like the speaker has gotten drunk on their way back from getting a root canal and is currently struggling to eat a hot potato). Despite Norwegian having a massive range of regional dialects, Norwegian kids learn to speak a lot quicker than danish kids. Largely because danish kids just don't understand what they're hearing for longer. The Danes have to subtitle their own TV programmes because they don't really understand each other. It's a fucking mess. Norwegian kids understand Swedish before danish kids understand danish.
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It sounds like what you said is a joke, but just wanted to underline that this has even been subject to scientific study, e.g. mentioned here: https://theconversation.com/danish-children-struggle-to-learn-their-vowel-filled-language-and-this-changes-how-adult-danes-interact-161143
This answers exactly what I was asking, thanks!
Also I remember reading a newspaper account of a danish supermarket that actually ordered 1000 litres of milk by mistake. And everyone in Norway found it hilarious, because it happened after the sketch was aired.
No one mention the Norwegian butter crisis!
That was rough. It happened right before Christmas too. People were scalping butter on finn.no and supermarkets had to import butter from France.
Didn't people smuggled butter from Sweden to Norway? Imaging having that on your criminal record.
Probably. I was living in Bergen at the time, so it wouldn't have been practical for me. I make British Christmas food anyway, which is a lot more heavily spiced than Norwegian Christmas food. So it works to just use baking margarine.
a lot of swallowed and mumbled consonants
This has been my experience learning French. The written language and the spoken one are pretty wildly out of tune, with up to ~5 letters at the ends of some words either not pronounced at all, or heavily swallowed.
Learning the pronunciation of Castellano (i.e. a sister language) was vastly easier for me.
Maybe I have a little bias as a Spaniard, but I swear languages that lack a set of rules to correctly pronounce every word ever are mental illnesses.
I could give you any Spanish word you don't know and you wouldn't miss pronounce it.
languages that lack a set of rules to correctly pronounce every word ever are mental illnesses.
Yeah, I don't know enough about French grammar and pronunciation rules, but I think part of the problem comes from them trying to maintain a written language that got left in the dust by the spoken language ages ago. So instead of updating the written one, they chose to 'preserve history' and add a landslide of little rules explaining separate cases, not just for pronunciation, but in a hugely systemic way. Native French-speakers have actually complained to me about that occasionally.
I could give you any Spanish word you don’t know and you wouldn’t miss pronounce it.
I love that about Castellano, just that some regions speed it up so much that I can barely catch it.
Oh, dialects not only sped it up, they skip parts of words too. Funnily enough, I'm from the region where our dialect is to over pronounce consonants, and thus the easiest to understand haha.
Like learning Norwegian (bokmål) while living on the west coast. French vocal r, secondary Norwegian language, one hour travel north or south can be regarded as a completely new language. Nice fjords, though.
Ataturk famously switched Turkey to a modified Latin alphabet instead of an Arabic-based one in order to boost literacy rates. Combined with a huge push to educate people on the alphabet it seemed to be successful.
Based. Many are saying polish would make more sense in a Cyrillic alphabet. I couldn't say
I remember reading somewhere that Danish children on average learn to speak slower than others.
Kamelåså!
Sygelkugle!
Gutesgeet 👋
Skatusen?
Tusen tanks!
I saw a video the other day that repeated that claim, but I can't remember which video it was, nor can I find a specific scientific paper on it (caveat: there may be a search skill issue on my part).
Interestingly, I did find a paper (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28430531/) that apparently seeks to investigate the claim, but doesn't mention, in their abstract anyway, any specific papers making the claim. That's something I'd expect they'd do if they found such a paper themselves, but I can also think of a few reasons that such information might be omitted from it.
IIRC (and heavily paraphrasing here as this isn't my specialty to say the least) most languages end up having about the same information density because most humans process language at the same speed. Some languages are spoken faster, but have less density in information, where others are slower but have higher information density. In The end it evens out, more or less
From that, without looking at other facts, I'd guess that babies learn it pretty much at the same speed, no?
you into linguistics?
Since the main question here has already been answered by the Danish/Norwegian post, I would like to address something different. My native language is Spanish, and I completely disagree with you.
English is a lot easier to learn to speak than Spanish. Spanish has everything English has, plus:
- Conjugations (corro, corres, corre, corremos, corréis, corren, corrés, corría, corrías, corríamos, corríais, corrían, corrí, corriste, corrió, corrimos, etc, etc, etc vs run, runs, ran, running)
- Gendered words (La Tienda, Las Tiendas, El Pape, Los Papeles l vs The shop, The shops, The Paper, The Papers)
- Purposefully misgendered words in certain contexts (i.e. Feminine words that use the masculine article in some occasions: El alarma, Los alarmas)
- Particles that change because of sound (Ostras o mejillones/mejillones u ostras : oysters or / mussels/mussels or ousters; insectos y arañas/arañas e insectos : insects and spiders/spiders and insects)
- Extra sounds (hard R as in "Raton")
- Temporary being verb (Ella es rubia/ella está rubia VS she is blonde/she is currently blonde)
The complications in English are later, after you know how to speak and have to learn how to write it, but we're talking babies learning here. Spanish writing is much easier than English because it's very phonetic, but just the conjugations are enough to drive English speakers insane trying to learn them because in English you use constructions to achieve the same effect, e.g. I run: yo corro; I ran: yo corrí; I would run: yo correría; I will run: yo correré; I used to run: yo corría; so that I would run; para que yo corra; so that I could run: para que yo corriera; run!: corre!; don't run!: no corras!. Different verbs would use the same construction in English but may be different sounds for different verbs in Spanish: e.g. I ran, I walked, I had vs Yo corrí, yo caminé yo tuve (and yes, I get that using run is a bad example here since it's irregular, but it's only one of a handful, whereas Spanish has different conjugations for different verbs plus some irregular ones)
English is an easy language, easier than Spanish IMO. If the child lives in a context where the language is spoken all the time doesn't matter when you talk about a first language.
Why would Spanish be easier than English?
I would judge it to be slightly harder because of gendered words.
Spanish is easier in the sense it's more regular. Genders don't had that much complexity if they are applied consistently, especially when you stack them against all the irregularities in English. That being said, and without claiming to be an expert, I think the consensus is that language acquisition time is similar across languages, but the time to master the language is related to how predictable/regular it's grammar and vocabulary formation is.
English is incredibly easy to learn. Why do you think it's basically the world's lingua franca? The spelling is just a matter of learning to spell and the grammar is dead easy. I was virtually fluent by the time I hit 11 because I'd been watching English language TV with subtitles.
Spelling is not taught in my language.
Because it's not necessary.
English is easy to get started but insanely hard to master. There are tons of irregular verbs, orthography is all over the place, plurals have more than a few pitfalls, etc.
It is the most schizophrenic language. Super easy to be understood even getting most of a sentence wrong, but can change meaning entirely with just a comma. Has at least two different root languages and as many as five depending on how you define root. Has words from almost every spoken language on the planet and has so many spelling exceptions you can have high level competitions just trying to spell different words.
And all that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Because the British empire was absolutely huge. Which lead to many countries having English as an official language. Which means those countries would conduct trade in English. Followed by American dominance, which also has English as its main language.
And that American dominance includes dominance in media, especially films because of hollywood. Technical documents, research and especially computer-related technical documents are mainly in English for the same reason.
Sure, English is not that hard of a language. But it's not the easiest either.
Unfortunately, English is not an easy language to learn for people who never grew up with it. I speak from experience, many of my friends do not speak English as a first language and some of the "quirks" of English are really really stupid and make it unnecessarily difficult to learn...
No language is easy to learn for people who never grew up with it (as in, it always takes effort), and every language has quirks. You’re arguing for it being hard to learn a language - this is true - not for English being uniquely hard.
Whether a language is easy or hard to learn largely depends on the languages you know already, especially as your mother tongue. Dutch is very close to English, and bas borrowed a lot of French vocabulary, so if you know those languages you will not have too hard of a time learning English. Relatively speaking, of course - to someone who only knows Mandarin, English (and French, and Dutch) will obviously be completely foreign, in everything: grammar, vocabulary and syntax.
The spelling is just a matter of learning to spell
The drawing is just a matter of learning to draw. What?
and the grammar is dead easy.
Subjective.
But I think it's "easy" to learn because it's prevalent. If Spanish or Thai were as prevalent as English you'd probably speak that and think it's just as easy.
You can learn any language basically through enough exposure to it.
Why do you think it's basically the world's lingua franca?
Afaik until WW2 German still was the lingua franca for academia. What, it became harder after the war? Oh wait, perhaps it's just fallen out of favor while the US, having not been bombed to rubble and having had an influx of educated immigrants, enjoyed a huge economic boom and resulting political and cultural dominance.
Spanish is phonetic, what you see is what you get. There's a few rules around the pronunciation of the letter c and (q)u/h not being pronounced, but it's otherwise pretty standard. Gender in Spanish isn't that difficult.
English is a complete mess of a bastard language with more exceptions than rules.
This doesn’t have anything to do with language acquisition by babies, though. Spelling is a completely different subject than natural, spoken, language, and obviously not something babies will come into contact with.
Not research, personal experience:
Even after many years of school/high-school in basque, I learnt it at a way slower rate than English, which was just 1 subject.
I didn't speak neither basque nor English outside school. At most, the difference might be that I consumed a little bit of media in English while none in basque. But all subjects except spanish and English were in basque, so that should make up for the difference.
And I don't think it's just a me thing. Since the curriculum has mostly been the same for all those years of school:
Learn how to say a verb.
That's it. Many years of school just to say verbs correctly.
The exams where mostly just fill in the blank exercises, where the blank was a verb.
I still don't know how to say verbs that aren't the simplest ones.
So to your question I'd say yes. Even though neither are my native tongue, I learnt both since I entered school, but learned them at wildly different rates.
I'm no specialist, but I'd say it is all about exposure.
How often and meaningfully they interact with people speaking different languages makes it easier for them to absorb that information. Is grandma the only person that speaks spanish with them when they visit once a year, while everyone else only speak in english? Yeah, it is going to be harder for them to learn spanish
My question is if you took the average for all babies learning only one language, would you see them acquiring that language and speaking at different times based on the difficulty of the language, or around the same time, based on natural development.