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Council removes almost 1,000 flags from Derby streets (www.bbc.com)

submitted 2 days ago by fne8w2ah@lemmy.world to c/unitedkingdom@feddit.uk

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[–] Denjin@feddit.uk 22 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They put these flags up like this for the same reason Mormons and Jehovas go knocking on doors. It's not to spread the word or convert anyone, it's to reinforce the "us vs them" mentality that locks people into relying on their group and distrusting and rejecting others.

They (the people who's idea it was to start doing this) know that the flags are going to get removed from lamp posts, telegraph poles, road signs etc but they get people to put them up and say "look how much everyone hates us" and then all they talk about is how you can't show the flag anymore because of woke, when most council buildings already fly the union flag and on private property you can fly whatever you want (generally).

[–] MrNesser@lemmy.world 11 points 2 days ago

It's an attempt to normalise a view that is inherently racist so by the next election it's going to be more acceptable to act like that.

Pure fucking evil

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 15 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Some of these flag shaggers did the same up here in Scotland but with the St Andrews flag. Unfortunately for them, that flag is associated with the independence movement, not racism, so they haven't managed to portray the message they're after.

Most councils responded with "we're not going to explicitly go out to take them down but they'll be removed during routine maintenance". So now, instead of a racist dog whistle we have free independence decorations!

Useful idiots.

Also, these dumb fucks wouldn't know patriotism if it shat in their mouth. Patriotism is helping your neighbour, your community, your country. Improving living conditions in this country, making life worth living here. Not being angry at foreigners and putting up a piece of cloth. If they genuinely cared they'd read a fucking book and learn how to make this country better, but they just want to be angry and validated for it. Pricks.

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Nationalism is still nationalism.

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

If you have no understanding of politics, nuance, or history, then yeah, sure, nationalism is still nationalism.

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Scots Independence is a nationalistic endevour, it's pushed on an us and them basis with the usual strength and weakness contradictions and ahistorical myth making. This is the same for every independence movement that isn't literally fighting against an invading force (eg Ukraine against Russia).

Westminster is fucked, absolutely, and the current system does not work for anyone outside of south east England and London. But imagining that a unified Scotland even existed pre-1603 is something my Isles ancestors would dispute rather strongly, especially if insisted on by lowlanders.

We should be proud of our history, there is nothing wrong with that, but pretending that there is any genuine factual case based in history, economics, political structure, or anything other than emotion, is foolish.

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Utter shite. It's on a basis of self determination, not us vs them. There is zero anti-English sentiment behind it, despite what the Tories attempt to portray. Anti-Westminster? Absolutely. Anti-Tory? A fairly large amount, yes. But if you can't be anti-political opponent, then what the fuck can you be against?

There is no ethnic element to it. It's not Scotland for Scots, like other nationalist movements. Except on the basis of anyone who lives here and pays taxes can regard themself as a Scot. Whether they are white, black, brown, gay, straight, cis, trans, disabled, religious, atheist, none of that comes into consideration. It is not a classical right wing, ethnic, nationalist movement. It is a movement for self determination and proportional representation under a broadly left to centre left banner.

There is no harkening back to William Wallace or Robert the Bruce, or any other mythology. There is no preconceived notions that we all lived happily in harmony in the past until the Evil English™ invaded. Clan warfare is clearly understood. Rivalries between families and various landed elites is well understood. The Highland Clearances are clearly understood to have been a mixture of Scottish and English landed gentry causing atrocities for profit.

The fact you call it Scots Independence and hark to your Isles ancestors makes me question whether you even live here and understand this movement. I would be more inclined to guess you're an American cosplaying because your great grandad once had a fart on The Royal Mile.

For more information about the independence movement, written by the people who are actually campaigning for it. See here:

https://www.gov.scot/newscotland/

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Am not a yank.

For my sins I live a bit south of the border, and Aberdeen before that.

Thanks for proving the emotive part of my point though.

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

benefit from Barnett consequentials

And you said you're from Aberdeen?...

Jesus Christ. When was the last time you saw the gold paved streets of the silver city? It's really benefited immensely from 50 years of oil wealth! It's just swimming in money. Union Street definitely isn't in disrepair and filled with bookies and the like... It has so much money it's decided to open 5 more libraries just for a laugh, none have shut down, honest.

If you think Barnett is a net benefit to Scotland then I've got a bridge to sell you, that only exemplifies the propaganda you've been exposed to. This isn't an emotive issue, it's an issue of self determination. About getting a chance at real democracy, not FPTP, winner takes all, tyranny of the majority. You said it yourself that Westminster is fucked.

If this movement were emotive why would it be supported by everyone from anarchists, communists, socialists, and social democrats? Populism hasn't been the tactic of engaging the population, as would be expected from an emotive issue. Rational reasoning has, which is why it's garnered support from a broad spectrum of centrists to leftists.

Maybe think on where you get your information about independence, what biases you're exposed to, what opinions you're hearing from colleagues and friends who have no stake or say in the matter but will provide an opinion anyway. Ignore the fucking BBC on this matter, they are not impartial.

Return to my previous comment and click the link at the bottom. Read. And get your head out your arse for dismissing an entire political movement which has had widespread support since 2007 (breaking a proportionally representative system's expectation of no majorities) as just an emotive issue.

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Christ alive.

I completely agree my home town is fucked, it's part of the reason I left. My point re Barnett is that Holyrood gets additional money from Westminster for all the cash it spaffs in London, while the bit a few miles south of the border I now live in doesn't and has all the same problems.

I'm a massive supporter of devolution and local decision making, and a lot more powers - especially tax raising - do need to be devolved.

Yes a lot has changed since 2014, but where you are drawing the lines on the map to decide whether something is ours or theirs is something to consider.

It's clear that you think an independent Scotland would benefit from oil wealth - I'd agree, if for no other reason than I can't see Holyrood selling off the drilling rights to their executive mates in BP and Shell - but if the central belt votes for independence, and everywhere else doesn't, but due to population distribution the overall vote is Yes...well, then what?

Is that self determination?

Or is the same madness we saw with brexit, of majority rule forcing everyone else to follow them?

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Holyrood doesn't get additional money though. That's my point. Barnett is a scam. Even the BBC's ex Economics Editor, Stephanie Flanders, concluded that Scotland breaks even. That's somebody who is staunchly against independence and had a high level position in an organisation which was proven to have had an anti-independence bias.

https://youtu.be/yqGGriEJac8

If that's her analysis, with all of her biases, what do you think the reality is? What do you think the situation is now, now that we're 12 years on from then, with advancements in renewables and Scotland's geography being incredibly good for wind, tidal, and hydro power? With water becoming a scarcer and scarcer resource, and Loch Ness alone holding more water than England and Wales' rivers and lakes combined?

The line has been drawn for as long as anybody who is alive has known. Scotland, England, and Wales have had well defined borders for quite some time. If the north of England wishes to join a Scottish independence movement then fair enough, but they've made no real manoeuvres for such a move.

What if Aberdeen declares independence? What if East Kilbride declares independence? You're getting into silly reductionism now. Holyrood has always argued it's a matter of self determination and has no military means with which to force any regions, so what do you think would happen? Do you think John Swinney will ride into Fraserburgh on a tank while Russell Findlay fires artillery at him? Or do you think a proportionally representative parliament would hash something out? Holyrood, being proportional, doesn't have the issue of a tyranny of the majority.

[–] hellothere@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

You’re getting into silly reductionism now.

To an extent, but, it's only silly because of where you draw the line compared to where someone else might.

Going back to the ref results, the borders in general had some of the highest No votes. Border psychology is a fascinating thing, and what you usually see in countries with adversarial relationships is an increasing level of self-identification and expressed difference, rather than less. People in Hawick not wanting to lynch every bastard from Otterburn is - internationally speaking - a rarity.

I guess my point overall is that Westminster absolutely need reform, FPTP needs to be fucked off, as do the Lords, and we need to move to a much more federalist system with substantial devolution. A Union of Equals would also mean that English regions get the same levels of devolution, and if we did that on population there would be 10 of those, plus Wales and NI.

But I think we also need to seriously pay attention to the lessons we've learnt from Brexit. Barriers to trade are a fucking nightmare. As are trade negotiations. The majority of Scotland's total trade is to rUK, much like how the UK's trade was to EU. In a dynamic where you're the smaller market exporting to a larger market, you're in a weaker negotiating position. Political, maybe spiteful, reasons give the other block reasons to drag their feet. Disentangling laws over 50 years take forever, 400 even more so.

I sincerely don't believe that independence meaningfully improves Scotland's position or abilities in the world. Let's assume an independent Scotland is allowed to immediately rejoin the EU, by pretty much any measure it would be in the middle of the pack, around the same position as Slovakia, Bulgaria, Hungary, that sorta thing.

Have a look at EU policy, what is decided, even with a more (but still pretty bad) proportional system, where money is spent, who has the most influence, etc, and I don't see how that would be a meaningful improvement.

But that's just where I draw my particular line - give me a federal UK within a federal EU, and I'd be content.

[–] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I wouldn't care about the flags of they didn't look so shit. Your Temu polyester flag zip tied at half mast on a lamppost is fucking embarrassing. The roundabouts are even worse, you don't put a flag somewhere it's going to be driven over and get filthy.

Get a proper flag pole, or is that too difficult for the master race?

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 1 points 1 day ago

I would have a bit more respect for them if they actually went to the effort of tying them at the top of the lamp post. Rather than standing on their mate shoulders.

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 5 points 2 days ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

In general, I'm not at all against seeing our flags flown. There's nothing wrong with it, and in fact I think it's bizarre some people actually ashamed of it. The only other place I've seen people act in this manner is Germany. It's an aspect of British culture I'm not keen on. It's fine to have some pride about where you live. I have a Northumberland badge stitched onto my backpack, I think it's neat.

That said, cable-tying some AliExpress polyester tat onto a lamppost and spray painting a wonky flag onto a roundabout just because you don't like the forrins? Hardly a classy move. Even aside from the sinister motives behind it, it looks shit. Particularly now that they're all stained, faded, and tattered.

Let's leave flags to either people putting them up on their own property, and councils who are willing to do them properly.

[–] echodot@feddit.uk 4 points 1 day ago

I'm guessing you're not old enough to remember the white nationalists using it to threaten people. People are uncomfortable with the flag flying because it reminds them of those people, especially because the very same people are the ones putting them up now.

[–] mindlesscrollyparrot@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They aren't patriots. It's not like they put up the flags of Derby or Derbyshire, and they don't put up the Union Flag nearly as often as the cross of St. George.

And why don't they put up the flag of the Commonwealth? Do they not sing God Save the King?

[–] Ummdustry@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

only 15 of 56 commonwealth members have king charles as head of state, so it would be kinda werid and against the spirit of things to wave it out of royalist sympathy. You could fly the Royal Standard, but I'm pretty sure that's technically a hangin' if you aren't actually in the presence of the king.

Given how many of them also believe that the royal family is part of multicultural conspiracy to replace the English with bug-eating foreigners, various interregunum flags would mage sense too.

[–] mindlesscrollyparrot@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 2 days ago

You're quite right, and there isn't actually a flag of Derby, and the Derbyshire flag isn't that old, but none of that matters, because they aren't flying the flags out of patriotism.

[–] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 1 points 2 days ago

One can only hope Charles ends like his namesake.

[–] RobotToaster@mander.xyz 5 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's like 4chan Vs Shia Lebouff all over again

[–] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

In almost every other country other than Germany it's very normal to see national flags flying everywhere. People on the right are starting to realise that and use it to say "they're trying to stop us being patriotic."

Taking flags down is only going to make that worse and create an "us vs them" mentality. What would help, is flying more flags. Fly a pride flag next to a St George's Cross. Fly a Union Jack with a dragon in the middle. Fly the same flag as the far right, but see it to represent all the people who work to make the country what it is, no matter who they are. That's far better than creating unnecessary divisions over something that really isn't an issue.

[–] Paddzr@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It's not about the flags, it's where they are.

You can have as many flags in your garden as you wish.

But you may not put a flag on street lights or on dual carriage way bridge for it to fly down and cause an accident.

I don't like the idea of people spray painting flags, I don't like when they did it with trans flags and I don't like it now either, but that's not getting removed by council because it doesn't cause the same level of risk that the council would be viable for.

[–] 1rre@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Flags on lampposts isn't seen to be an issue anywhere else. There's also (as far as I'm aware) no reported issues of flags flying down, regardless of whether it causes accidents. Even then, if it's not well secured, remove it or tie it properly, otherwise leave it, it's the same amount of effort if not less than removing it.

Also telling people to keep it to their garden isn't going to help. The problem the right have is that they feel that patriotism is being suppressed. Telling them they can be patriotic, but only in private, isn't going to help that.

[–] Zombie@feddit.uk 1 points 1 day ago

Flying a flag isn't patriotism though, it's virtue signalling. Virtue signalling on the behalf of racist agitators.

Also, the vast majority of these flags are made from polyester or nylon, neither of which are good for the environment so why should they be tolerated to be littered everywhere? We wouldn't tolerate bin bags being littered everywhere, but because they're colourful bin bags it's fine?