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[–] Nath@aussie.zone 6 points 2 weeks ago

HMAS Stirling has been there for 50 years. I lived/went to school down that way. I remember in the Cold War days saying that we'd never know about World War 3, as a nuke would take out the Naval Base on day 1.

So it's a bit rich for anyone to be saying that the base is making them feel less safe today. It's been a legitimate military target my whole life.

[–] Aussieiuszko@aussie.zone 6 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

We need to get America out of Australia.

[–] Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Question is how to protect our national borders without the (admittedly now shaky) protective umbrella of the United States Military and it's associated technology and industrial base.

I'd love a national reallignment along this vein, but it seems the majority of Australians, especially defense personnel, are comfortable in the status quo with near total reliance on the US. I'd love to move away from the US in terms of defense system independence. Not only because its better for Australia's sovereignty, but if we have a more effective military, we can be a more effective ally. Until that happens we're just a US lackey, with similar uses to the gangly friend of a school bully.

[–] Aussieiuszko@aussie.zone 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Protect our borders from who?

What credible threat do you see to Australia’s borders?

We are one of the top 20 strongest militaries on the planet. We can defend ourselves from almost anyone, not that they even have the means to reach our shores.

That only leaves China, and they have no intention of invading us. So why are we risking our safety by being tied to America, how many Australians have died in their wars?

Fair enough for picking up on borders, I should have said protect Australia's National interest. In 2025 the world finally turned a much anticipated historic chapter and became far more reminiscent of the world in 1870's-1910's nation states in competition, however with far more countries campaigning for their own interests. This is probably a more realist take than I actually advocate, its in Australia's best interest to have allies, and preserve what can be preserved of a rules based order, preferably this should be led by middling powers such as Australia, France, Britain, Brazil, Colombia, S Korea, Japan, Nigeria, et al.

Australia is definitely a strong nation to a degree, but i think we have notable points of potential failure. The largest is what I point to in my previous comment, our reliance on another power for key defensive capabilities. Australia has a strong military, but I don't think its resilient. The national defense strategy seemingly amounts to being able to protect ourselves until our allies can come to help us throw off an attacker.

Our industrial base is low, our personnel requirements are near an almost 'neoliberal-esque' minimum, and our logistical abilities rest on a commercial airline and trucks, boats and rail are (apart from notable geographic areas, Pilbara for rail may be one) largely forgotten modes, narrowing our logistical flexibility and abilities to respond.


Take the ability of our navy, it amounts to a patrol of our national shores and enough for a single oil supply convoy. Although note, this is based on an early 2025 assessment from just Aidan Morrison on Decouple


The key to not getting invaded is deterrence. Its folly to rule out Indonesia as a possible future invader in a game that moves in decades, just look at the time horizons of AUKUS for example. In a world where it is less likely USA will commit to defense of an allied nation, even though they're placing military assets in Australia, it is more prudent now to get ourselves on the road to heavier self reliance such as that of Sweden, Finland, or Switzerland. They of course have very different threats between themselves and Australia, but their military resilience is what i focus on as a key difference between Australia and those nations.

To go back to Indonesia, its not that I think they're planning a multi-decade attack, or that I think they're the most significant threat to Australia, its that I don't want to see the Oceania region dominated by Indonesia, and Australia is best placed in our region to offer a counterbalance and work with the Indonesians to focus on their Northern defence as the gateway to a highly collaborative and understanding oceanic region. Basically our Island region is the smallest in the world, but could become highly defendable if the nations in this region work together. This argument takes on the realist assumption that a country who perceives weakness in their neighbours will invariably seek to dominate them in every way, its not becessary that that assumption is true always, but its a risk that doesn't need to be ignored.


This is a whole lot of words, i'm gona stop here even if I haven't quite answered you properly, but i feel i'm losing the thread here. Thanks for helping me actively think about and justify my position. Please tear apart this comment, i wrote it in a stream of consciousness, so i reckon theres a bit in here that won't stack up.

[–] Nath@aussie.zone 2 points 2 weeks ago

I could probably be swayed by that, for examples like Pine Gap, Exmouth and any permanent US bases on Australian soil.

That's not really what HMAS Stirling is, though. It's an Australian naval base. Remove the US, the base would still be there.

[–] Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

One of the first ones comes from local mother Latoya Voogt.

She prefaces her question by referencing a recent Four Corners investigation that discussed the heightened risk of an attack on Australian bases with US nuclear submarines in port.

"If a hypersonic missile is launched at nuclear submarines, what is the process for informing and evacuating the residents?" Latoya asks.

A mid-shot of Rockingham resident Latoya Voogt posing for a photo indoors in a black top. Rockingham resident Latoya Voogt is worried about the area becoming a target for attack. (ABC News: Rhiannon Shine)

"We are unwillingly living on the frontline." Vice Admiral Jonathan Mead responds by saying the nuclear-powered submarines are all about making Australia safer.

"The reason Australia is embarking on a capability that has such incredible flexibility and stealth is actually to defend Australia, protect our people, and to ensure our prosperity is maintained," he says.

"We live in a region that is deteriorating by the year. We're seeing a number of countries blatantly disregarding the rules-based order.

"These submarines are designed to prevent an adversary from attacking Australia."

Unsatisfied with the response, Latoya repeats her question about what the plan is for informing residents of an emergency.

She's eventually told that people would get alerts and information through the police, in the same way they do when there is a bushfire emergency.

Military goes to community for respectful community consultation and engagement, military fucks up simple task by being dismissive shithead to community member, asking an easily answerable programmatic question.

[–] Eyekaytee@aussie.zone 3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

β€œIf a hypersonic missile is launched at nuclear submarines, what is the process for informing and evacuating the residents?” Latoya asks.

They wouldn't bother wasting money on a hypersonic missile at a submarine in port

Submarines are slow as is and if it's in a port it's essentially a stationary target, a couple cheap submarine drones would take it out like drones vs a turtle tank:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6OG1myGedwc

or Ukrainian sea drones targeting Russian oil tankers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9POEWcwNoOw

With that said

We are unwillingly living on the frontline

I don't know why but this comes across as such a bitch complaint to me, like living next to a live music venue and complaining about the noise

[–] Nath@aussie.zone 2 points 2 weeks ago

I don't know why but this comes across as such a bitch complaint to me, like living next to a live music venue and complaining about the noise

That's an apt comparison. The naval base has been there since the 70s. And before that, HMAS Leeuwin was 20km north at Fremantle from 1940.

True, the realities of an attack would be very different from the way she presents. But the role of the military representative here is to see through the incorrect, or overly dramatic examples of the public and address the core underlying fears. From this reporting, i don't think they executed on that at all well.


Your Live music example is interesting comparison, but its not exactly comparing apples with apples. Thats because live music is far less destructive than a militarised attack however more unlikely a militarised attack over live music is.

It puts in mind of the comparisons between solar/wind/batteries, and nuclear. Yes they can all be far more 'green' than coal, oil, and gas, but, again however unlikely an event occurs is, the destructive capability of a nuclear accident is far greater than that of solar/wind/batteries.

[–] Ixoid@aussie.zone 2 points 2 weeks ago

Americans and their death machines are not welcome here.