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submitted 2 days ago by 0x815@feddit.org to c/technology@lemmy.world

cross-posted from: https://feddit.org/post/4262252

A combination of good high-speed internet coverage, high digital literacy rates, large rural populations and fast-growing fintech industries had put the Nordic neighbours on a fast track to a future without cash.

[...]

But Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022 and a subsequent rise in cross-border hybrid warfare and cyber-attacks blamed on pro-Russia groups have prompted a rethink.

[...]

The Swedish government has since completely overhauled its defence and preparedness strategy, joining Nato, starting a new form of national service and reactivating its psychological defence agency to combat disinformation from Russia and other adversaries. Norway has tightened controls on its previously porous border with Russia.

[...]

[Norway's] justice and public security ministry said it “recommends everyone keep some cash on hand due to the vulnerabilities of digital payment solutions to cyber-attacks”. It said the government took preparedness seriously “given the increasing global instability with war, digital threats, and climate change. As a result, they’ve ensured that the right to pay with cash is strengthened”.

[...]

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[-] BilboBargains@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago

Something we can thank the Russians for and hackers everywhere.

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[-] simon@slrpnk.net 27 points 1 day ago

The risk of the payment system getting shut down and people being unable to make payments for a while is real. And it is one good reason to be less reliant on digital payments.

But there is also the risk of bad actors, which could also be e.g. Russia, getting access to decades of payment history through a hack, if everything is digital. Having that data for every citizen of a country could enable efficient profiling of people in the country using big data analysis technologies.

The kind of thing you could find out with the transaction data is who are working in the military or security police, who is sympathetic to Russia and at the same time vulnerable to work with foreign governments, and potential blackmailing material relating to people in these or other groups. I'm sure the analysts working for the bad actor can come up with even more useful things to look for in the data.

There are of course a lot of other data sources that bad actors are interested in and that are easier to hack, but the financial history seems more comprehensive source of information than most other ones.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

Yup, I keep a fair amount of cash on hand at home in case there's some kind of mass outage so I can at least get essentials to last until power is restored. Oh, and I also use it for my kids' allowance and for baby sitters, but I have larger denominations as well in case of emergencies.

That said, I have been considering using cash more often because I really don't like all the tracking that already goes on, and I certainly don't want the government having that data as well. But cash is super inconvenient because of small change, so I haven't made the switch yet. If we could get rid of the small change and just round prices a bit, I would seriously consider going back to cash.

[-] oldfart@lemm.ee 3 points 20 hours ago

Just a note, high denominations are not great during emergencies, unless you mean big purchase emergencies. Buying food and gas with high denomination bills may end up in seller not accepting the bill because they have no change. Or happily accepting that bill despite having no change.

For small change, you could take the jar to your bank and make a cash deposit (and see the cashier die inside). In some branches they have machines for counting change.

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[-] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 4 points 1 day ago

It already happened in Ukraine during the NotPetya attack by Russia in 2017

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Ukraine_ransomware_attacks

[-] T156@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The risk of the payment system getting shut down and people being unable to make payments for a while is real. And it is one good reason to be less reliant on digital payments.

Or entities. The USA had a brief oil crisis recently because one of the major pipeline companies had their billing system hacked. Since the company couldn't verify whether someone had paid, they just didn't supply any oil.

Couple that with some misleading news stories and social media panic, and it blew up into a proper shortage from people hoarding all the petrol, and leaving none left.

[-] pinkystew@reddthat.com 3 points 1 day ago

Do you have any more info about this?

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[-] 0x0@programming.dev 4 points 1 day ago

Having that data for every citizen of a country could enable efficient profiling of people in the country using big data analysis technologies.

You don't need an external actor for that, a government can very well do that to their citizens...

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[-] pinkystew@reddthat.com 5 points 1 day ago

I hoped for a second they meant moneyless.

[-] dogslayeggs@lemmy.world 73 points 2 days ago

As much as I hate using cash, I understand that the credit card companies charge ridiculous fees to businesses and also that people with very low income don't always have access to digital forms of payment. Maybe Sweden does better with equipping their entire society with digital tools, but in the US I don't think we are ready for a fully digital payment society.

[-] njordomir@lemmy.world 56 points 2 days ago

I don't like using cashless anything because I know part of the cost is my privacy. Having said that, convenience is a powerful draw and cash can be a pain, especially when you have to find a spot for small coins.

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[-] kn0wmad1c@programming.dev 42 points 1 day ago

In America, you can't open a bank account without an address. That means that the homeless population can't open a bank account (not easily, anyway), and therefore can't get a debit card.

Cashless is a nice idea, but it is extremely prohibitive against the most vulnerable people (which, sadly, might be part of the point).

[-] isthingoneventhis@lemmy.world 25 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It's largely a non-issue in the Nordic countries as you basically have to voluntarily opt out of any government aid programs to be homeless, which understandably most don't. This goes for most, if not all, vulnerable groups; most of the help is decently robust, at least enough to keep you fed and in housing. So I don't think it's a very large portion of the consideration, almost everything is paid via mobile pay, checks (any, not just from working) are all done digitally as well.

[-] jagged_circle@feddit.nl 6 points 1 day ago

Its still an issue for refugees and domestic abuse survivors

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[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

In Germany any EU resident has a right to a basic account, in case you're homeless you should have an address because you're in a shelter, if you insist on sleeping rough (or the municipality is just too fucked up, happens in places) you can give the address of a social work organisation (those are all over also doing debtor counselling and a lot of other stuff).

Only valid reason for a bank to refuse basic business is if you tried to defraud them. They don't have to give you a credit line, but they do have to accept your money, store it, and let you wire it (incl. POS payments etc).

Identity fraud is not an issue because they'll want to see a proper ID which, if you're legally in the country, you have.

It's less about paying, though, you can always pay with cash in Germany, it's about the welfare authorities not wanting to handle cash and cheques only if actually necessary.

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GNU Taler to the rescue!

The netherlands are already looking into it: https://www.ngi.eu/ngi-projects/ngi-taler/

The project could be used via paper trail, as far as I understand it.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 22 hours ago

Woot! It's been a while since I looked into Taler, but I've long held that we should be using it or something like it for digital transactions. I'd love a browser extension that compensates creators for removing ads, for example, and I think this would be a fantastic way to do it. But having it at a national level is even better!

Yeah, I think so too. It should replace bank transactions completely.

[-] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 2 points 21 hours ago

I hope someone posts here when/if they decide to adopt it, because I'd love to hear more details about it.

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this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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