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“the lesson I'm choosing to take from xz, as an oss maintainer, is that anyone trying to pressure or guilt me into doing something should immediately be told no, for security reasons” (crabby.fyi)

submitted 3 months ago by davel@lemmy.ml to c/opensource@lemmy.ml

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[-] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 30 points 3 months ago

Thing is, much of what Linus says is respectful; even though it reads harsh. Phrases like "you keep doing this" and "your code is shit" and "I will bar you from committing code until you can get better" and similar stuff, is respectful to the person, as he is still just focusing on the code : the product. Mostly.

Sure it comes off as aggressive ultimatums, but when I worked on New Jersey I saw numerous arguments between passionate coders who really cared about their work and spoke on these loud voices with aggressive gesticulations and gestures, and it was frightening. But, when you took apart the arguments, it was all about "the code" this, and "the standard" that, and very little "you suck" and "you're dumb". And, when the argument was settled, these passionate people were still friends.

Of all the people I've been yelled at by in my career, the harsh-sounding ones who kept it on the work and not the worker ended up with the most loyalty and trust in the end.

Give me a dozen Linus who care about their work. Sure he's slipped up a few times, but on balance he's been very good. Even before the "let's all hug" sensitivity training.

[-] lightnsfw@reddthat.com 4 points 3 months ago

Sure it comes off as aggressive ultimatums, but when I worked on New Jersey I saw numerous arguments between passionate coders who really cared about their work and spoke on these loud voices with aggressive gesticulations and gestures, and it was frightening. But, when you took apart the arguments, it was all about “the code” this, and “the standard” that, and very little “you suck” and “you’re dumb”. And, when the argument was settled, these passionate people were still friends.

I used to work for a guy like that. He was aware of how a lot of people perceived him and was working on it but it never really bothered me when he slipped because like you said it wasn't a personal attack, he was just trying to make us get the work done to his standards. There were multiple times he would come to me and apologize after we finished something and I was just like "well you were right so I'm not really worried about it".

[-] zagaberoo@beehaw.org 3 points 3 months ago

"You're dumb" is disrespectful, but "your code is shit" isn't? How does the latter not reasonably imply the former?

Being respectful is taking the time to moderate "your code is shit" to something like "your code is not acceptable". You might even go a modicum further into kindness with "there are aspects of your code I need you to improve".

All express the same idea, some will leave the listener more open to internalizing the criticism.

[-] reverendsteveii@lemm.ee 6 points 3 months ago

How does the latter not reasonably imply the former?

I'm not dumb and I write shit code all the time. Bad code only implies that the author is dumb if you assume only dumb people can make mistakes.

[-] zagaberoo@beehaw.org 1 points 3 months ago

Bad code, yes, calling it 'shit', no.

Stuff like this is a big part of why software circles are seen as so hostile and unwelcoming to outsiders.

You can be completely clear and frank without resorting to insult, mild though it may be. Just because you and people most like you understand that calling their work 'shit' doesn't reflect on them personally, doesn't mean it's not significantly exclusionary.

Now, obviously you can get to know your reports well enough to understand whom would take 'shit' well, but that doesn't mean it's not generally important to temper criticism with kindness. Kindness never has to mean holding back criticism, just avoiding stooping to insult.