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New to Linux? Ubuntu Isn’t Your Only Option
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this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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Linux
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Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
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Imagine putting Manjaro as reliable and cutting edge over, say, Fedora.
Imagine putting Manjaro in the article instead of EndeavorOs
Small complaint but the article is decent as a whole
Agreed
Manjaro was one of my first distros when I was still learning, when I installed it, it made Wayland my default but didn't put in the required nvidia kernel parameters and I couldn't boot. I didn't even know what Wayland was to know why I couldn't boot
I mean, why not? Manjaro has recent packages and actively focuses on a user-friendly experience. Which includes things like a nice installer, good automatic support for hardware out of the box, a nice GUI for the package manager, GUI managers for drivers and kernel versions, it's based on the stable Arch branch and it comes with the LTS kernel etc.
Back a few years ago when I was looking to move my desktop away (from Ubuntu, ironically) I downloaded a bunch of distro ISOs (the usual suspects, we all know them, Pop, Mint etc.) and tried the live version to see how it goes. I picked Manjaro because it was the only one that did everything perfectly. Recognized all my peripherals, network shares, played all videos and music, printer, whatever.
(I know the usual arguments against it, btw, but it's mostly unrelated stuff or outright false.)
During my six month usage of Manjaro (my introduction to Arch-based distros), my desktop broke four times and booted me to the terminal. Almost once a month. I told myself this was the price you paid for living on the edge, using a rolling release. I switched to EndeavourOS and have not had a broken desktop in two whole years.
Manjaro's handling of AUR packages is fundamentally wrong and with their design decisions it cannot be fixed. You either give up the AUR entirely, or resign yourself to constantly breaking AUR packages and having to try and fix them.
Manjaro's handling of kernels via a GUI sounds good until you realise it's entirely manual and if you don't keep checking you will end up running an unsupported, out of date kernel with Arch packages that expect a newer one. Again, Manjaro violates Arch's golden rule of avoiding partial upgrades by holding your kernels back until you manually update them in their GUI. If you're running an Arch-based distro 99% of the time you want the latest kernel and an LTS kernel as a backup, but these are already in Arch as packages (and are thus updated in lockstep with your packages, as designed) so you don't need Manjaro's special GUI. Now if you wanted a particular kernel for some reason then sure, but Manjaro's GUI doesn't even let you pick the exact version you want anyway! All you can pick is the latest version of each major release.
If you're anything like I was at the time, you think you like Manjaro but what you actually like is Arch. Manjaro just gets in the way.
How did it break? It never broke for me once in the last 4 years.
I constantly have dozens of AUR packages installed. I have 70 right now. They don't break. Everything you're writing here is false.
Sometimes dynamic linking fails for an AUR package over 6 months or more but that's because I don't update them automatically (because none of them are critical). A simple rebuild fixes that.
It's not holding kernels back. The version you select receives updates. It's not bumping major versions of that's what you mean, but that's exactly how I want it. I don't want the distro doing that for me. I do not need the latest kernel.
Wrong again. I do not like several decisions in Arch and it requires more attention than Manjaro. Manjaro attempts to offer stability and low maintenance and actually does a good job of it.
I'm an experienced Linux user but I'm lazy and I want my cake and to eat it too. I want recent packages but I don't want the risks associated with bleeding edge everything. Manjaro gives me that. You can call it "Arch for lazy people", I don't mind, it's true.
My DE broke because Manjaro added untested/beta patches from upstream, sometimes even against the developer's word. This is something that Manjaro is known for. Guess who inspired dont-ship.it?
Also I would appreciate you not calling my statements on the AUR false. I have personal experience on the matter so we can play my experiences against yours if you like, or we can listen to the official Manjaro maintainers reccommending that it not be used, as it is incompatible with the Manjaro repos. By design Manjaro holds back Arch packages, which means AUR package dependencies often do not match what is expected. This is not false. Can you use the AUR? Sure, but you must keep in mind that Manjaro was not designed for it and it will break AUR packages sometimes. Sometimes it's as simple as waiting a couple weeks for Manjaro to let new packages through, but sometimes you can't just wait several weeks and you need to fix it yourself.
And yes, Manjaro does hold kernels back because you have to specify when you want to move off a major release. You can accidentally be using an unsupported kernel and not even notice. Ask me how I know. Manjaro literally requires more maintenance than Arch on this front.
I can't comment on what maintenance Arch requires that Manjaro doesn't, as I run EndeavourOS. I've found it to be everything Manjaro wishes it was - a thin, user-friendly wrapper around Arch.
Just remember that Manjaro's official response to them forgetting to update their SSL certs was to roll back your clock, putting everyone at risk of accepting invalid certs in the process.
What DE? What patches? And isn't Arch the upstream for Manjaro?
The possibility that AUR dependencies may not be met is not false. What is false is the claim that it's a common problem. The chances of it happening are tiny. If it did happen to you please mention what AUR package(s).
It's very hard to argue with people who claim "it broke" but never give concrete examples of what broke. They make these outrageous claims and put the burden on you to prove them wrong. It's either disingenuous or done by spiteful, clueless people who genuinely don't know what they did wrong but then shouldn't go around throwing mud.
That's a feature, not a bug. I've already explained that I dislike any distro that forces major kernel changes on me. Forcing people to switch major kernel versions is dumb and dangerous. That's high maintenance for me, waking up one day to find out I'm on a different kernel and that shit doesn't work.
That is not what Manjaro is nor wishes to be. It's a derivate distro with its own goals and I find it unbelievable how much some people can hate that. It's not the first distro in history that's downstream of another, Debian has dozens of distros using it as a base and you don't see this kind of extreme reactions. I'm baffled by it.
Ah there's the old chestnut. Thank God this irrelevant fact exists; what would people bring up otherwise when all else fails.
When I say upstream that's technically upstream of upstream - I mean the application repositories. Manjaro has in the past applied their own patches on top and broken functionality. The example that comes to mind is the most heinous one where a Manjaro maintainer patched in three pull requests (including CLOSED ones) and pushed the result to their stable repo: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty/-/merge_requests/986 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty/-/merge_requests/1035 https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/chatty/-/merge_requests/1060 https://forum.manjaro.org/t/manjaro-arm-beta25-with-phosh-pinephone-pinephonepro/116529/11 . Applying patches to upstream is not unheard of, but you don't do it without contacting the developer, because they are the ones going to get the bug reports. Manjaro did not notify the developers. It's this recurring trend of unprofessionalism which has tainted Manjaro's reputation, whether it's letting their SSL cert expire FOUR separate times (once, maybe twice is understandable, but more speaks to underlying issues in structure), or applying patches to applications without developer's knowledge and shipping it to users, or the two separate times they DDoSed the AUR servers with a poorly thought out pamac feature, etc..
I give no concrete examples because this all occurred almost two years ago for me at this point. I'm not out to capsize Manjaro or bring about it's demise, so I don't write down every package that breaks for use as ammunition in internet debates. I just want a distro that works for me. Manjaro wasn't that for me so I moved on. You asked why some people don't like Manjaro and I'm simply explaining why.
The AUR issue happened often enough for me to consider it frequent. It happened most often with niche packages, like the various MSP430 toolchain packages which I often needed, but I explicitly remember it happening at least once on fairly mainline packages like cemu (or was it yuzu?).
The problem is not that Manjaro allows you to pick whichever major release kernel you like, but rather that it doesn't account for this in the packaging system. You could be running kernel 6.4 (i.e. not officially supported anymore) and update your packages, resulting in a broken system with no warning. By decoupling the kernel version from the package system Manjaro unleashes a whole new failure mode. This would be fine if they accounted for this in their packaging model, but they don't (because Arch doesn't and it would be too much work to implement and support it themselves, presumably. It sounds quite tough). This tool, which is designed to make the system more stable as you say, actually can make it less stable!
Manjaro was sold to me as 'Beginner Arch', so I don't know what to tell you on that front. I don't think this is at all related to why people dislike Manjaro though: Nobody hates Ubuntu because it's based on Debian, they hate it because of their decisions, like Snaps. Likewise nobody hates Manjaro because it's Arch based, they hate it because of the decisions they've made. Manjaro isn't the only distro getting hate, but it is probably the lowest hanging fruit due to all of the administative fumbles.
People lose their shit about Manjaro pretty frequently. It's pretty much a meme at this point.
On a side note there's no stable branch of Arch
Do you have proof of Manjaros usual arguments being unrelated or false? The things I've read over the years seem like valid criticism.
There's generally three "arguments" that keep being quoted.
I think it does. If you make the choice to poorly manage your distro's tools/website it shows that you aren't responsible enough to manage the distro. They also had the laptop purchasing issue.
I'm not saying every distro needs to be super organized and testing shit but they should be before I recommend it to someone. Especially when there are other Arch based distros that don't have the issues.
The newbie stuff is fair enough. I do think they get extra flak here because the distro was marked as Arch for noobs.
I don't think that would be the case. The AUR helper would pull the updated dependencies from the Arch repos which would not be available in Manjaro's repos
They're valid arguments and people should be informed about it mainly because of how it was recommended a lot for beginners.
There's a huge hate bandwagon for Manjaro and I don't really understand it. I don't consider myself a linux expert and maybe that's why but I felt like Manjaro was very accessible to someone new to Linux who wanted to use Arch. You have the ability to install what you need while also having a relatively stable system. I enjoyed that it came with software that I would normally be using but I know there's a lot of diehards who want just Linux and to install things themselves, in that case they should just use plain Arch or Endeavor, but I think for others Manjaro is perfectly fine.
Manjaro Xfce was the chosen one that managed to attain my trust for Linux. I've been running manjaro for 1.5 years. Not a single unexpected breakage to count
People love to bag on Manjaro, but I know a fair number of people who use it as their primary OS. Hell, I used it as mine for almost a year and a half; I only moved to Arch because I was super bored one weekend.
I'm not saying don't use it, I've used it in the past and they get some stuff right. The included programs are generally good choices, their customisations on the DEs differentiate Manjaro from others, the GUI app that lets you trivially install different kernels with the click of a button is great. Unfortunately it ended up causing breakages a couple of times, so I moved on.
I'm saying if I were to pick a word to describe it certainly wouldn't be "reliable", due to their whole holding back Arch packages but not AUR ones, leading to dependency conflicts.
I honestly don't know why they don't hold back AUR ones as well (or don't hold back a week, a-la EndeavourOS). That'd solve IMO the biggest issue with the distro
Plus the whole repeatedly not updating expired security certificates and telling people to just roll back their clocks to "fix" it.
If it happened only once, I'd chalk it up as an embarrassing albeit understandable mistake. But it's happened, what, 3 times now? It's an issue in itself, but it also brings into question what other stuff they're messing up behind the scenes due to poor processes.
That's fair.
Aur is explicitly stated to be unsupported on Manjaro. I don't think you can hate on them for this
https://wiki.manjaro.org/index.php/Arch_User_Repository
They should probably have big warnings when you actually try to go install something, then, rather than as a note in their wiki that very very few people will read.
"People I know" has never been a suitable equivalent to actual data, Mr Trump.
Lol I agree
The only data in this exchange is the anecdotal data I provided, get your head out of your ass.