1004
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 21 Jul 2023
1004 points (97.9% liked)
politics
19244 readers
1831 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Modern liberals all believe that. Liberals gave up the social and economic justice beliefs of the Enlightenment as soon as they attained power post-revolution, socialists inherited the Enlightenment thought and became the new left opposition pushing for real justice.
Unfortunately a lot of people who claim to be socialist just follow Stalin's and Lenin's ideology of authoritarianism not much better than fascism with a history of executing actual socialists the moment they get into power. Thankfully Eastern Europe, having lived through the horrors of Stalin's regime, are better at seeing through that bullshit.
Also while most of liberal policies are just a way to make the rich richer, believing monarchy is the way to go and wanting a police surveillance state does not seem to be a common belief.
I want you to ask some of the jews that were liberated from death camps whether they think socialism was "not much better than fascism".
You're calling people like Jeremy Corbyn a monster, who regularly defends the ussr, correctly so. That's how far off the deep end you people are in terms of understanding of this topic.
I am originally FROM eastern europe(Czech) and this is just false. You are talking to people born in the 80s and 90s, brought up on an education system designed with a hefty quantity of anticommunism. You are not talking to people that actually lived under socialism at an age where they can remember any of it.
We have data to back this up anyway:
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/
http://www.balkanalysis.com/romania/2011/12/27/in-romania-opinion-polls-show-nostalgia-for-communism/
https://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/homesick-for-a-dictatorship-majority-of-eastern-germans-feel-life-better-under-communism-a-634122.html
http://praguemonitor.com/2011/11/21/pol
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/for-simon-poll-serbians-unsure-who-runs-their-country
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Poll-Most-Russians-Prefer-Return-of-Soviet-Union-and-Socialism-20160420-0051.html
https://news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx
You are objectively and measurably wrong. You are repeating repetitive garbage that you have seen moronic far right americans on reddit who have their brains riddled with the legacy of two red-scares repeat over and over again. Which you too repeat as fact despite it being simply not true.
But of course you'll completely ignore all of this absolutely factual information and still repeat garbage again next time because you people don't care about reality, you invent your own. When information that should make you self-crit and reevaluate your world view is presented to you the reactionary attitude you hold causes you to discard it.
Me and my whole family is from and currently in Eastern Europe you numbskull. As a bonus my mom's side of the family is originally from the karelia region where they escaped the soviet occupation once already. I grew up with horror stories from my parents and grandparents about the soviet regime. Also my extended family is about 10% lighter thanks to that regime. And anyone defending that bloody dictator's regime is a monster, yea.
It's 4 am so I'm not gonna go over the whole wall of surveys with a comb but here's my thoughts out em: I'm not surprised about the poll for Serbs, they do seem to love their genocide. As far as the 2 polls that says life was better under the USSR I guess their country must have really gone to shit now.
Considering the USSR did some considerable ethnic cleansing with their death camps in siberia and replacing the local population with their own and the breakup itself causing a lot of economic issues I can entirely believe that those countries consider the breakup itself to be harmful. Also note that the last poll leaves out 4 countries that definitely would consider the breakup to be good which is very weird. If you wanted a poll that said the breakup of the USSR was harmful you definitely want to leave out the Baltics.
Then you should know from talking to literally any elders that you're talking shit.
Lmao so you're a Finn that's proud of having fought on the nazi side of ww2 then and are unhappy with the soviets over it. Cool.
This is absolute nonsense. You are a historical revisionist who invents reality to suit themselves. 90% of people who entered soviet work camps left them alive perfectly well, calling them death camps is absolutely absurd. Frankly I'm not going to bother responding to you any further because this just continues to give you opportunities to spew literal actual bollocks into the thread.
Estonian actually, Karelia is were my mom's parents escaped from to get away from the soviet occupation but I don't fault the Finns for using help from the nazies to ward off a soviet occupation, considering the nazies weren't going to occupy Finland it was a lesser of 2 evils.
As I mentioned: the tales of soviet cruelties come from my parents and grandparents. Unfortunately my great grandparents never came back from the soviet death camps and there are no records of where they were taken which is a common thing for people losing family to those camps, soviet record keeping for those was shit. I'm lucky to know this much, most people just disappeared with no records at all. I guess they learned their lesson from the nuremberg trials and just destroyed their records.
Also feel free not to engage, I'm not too interested in some kid from the UK who fell for tankie bullshit and wasn't impacted by the soviet regime but I do love to argue.
Stopped reading. Fuck off nazi. Not only did Finland take part in the holocaust by exterminating the Roma living in Finland (or forcing them to fight in the nazi suicide squads), but Estonia also handed over Jews to the Gestapo.
If anti-communists could stop admitting that they admire the nazis within 2 or 3 comments of starting their anti-communism you might actually be dangerous and effective at spreading your bullshit but you can never fucking help yourselves.
Aside from that, officials confirmed a few years ago that the Finnish Waffen‐SS participated directly in Axis atrocities. While I personally wouldn’t classify 1940s Finland as a fascist state, I understand those who do and the politics that it adopted compel me to classify it as parafascist. An example from Finland’s Holocaust:
From Finland in World War II:
There is a lot more to be said about Finland, but to keep things short it is a gross oversimplification to summarise its alliance with the Third Reich as only ‘picking the lesser evil’.
Now, no offence, but I think that you’d be happier or healthier doing something else with your time than trying to reason with anticommunists, seeing as how they can just make up whatever stuff that they want while instantly throwing actual research into the trashcan. Are you sure that you don’t want to try something else? Exercising? Juggling? Reading more books? Even playing drunk lawn darts would be better.
This is new to me. I appreciate you bringing it to my attention.
I've been doing this for years. This username was banned on reddit 3+ years ago and liberals there still mention it. I will haunt them forever. I do like your "reading more books" suggestion though, and the implication you know I read already. I'm currently reading Losurdo.
Think about all the other people reading these comments with more than a few braincells. When you argue in a public forum like this you're not just arguing with one person you're also helping open other peoples eyes who may stumble across this thread in the future. Thats why I say keep up the arguments even if the other party is doing so in bad faith.
Ah yes, perfectly ok to defend the soviets committing a genocide, but the moment a country accepts help from nazies against soviet genocide they become nazies. Weird it doesn't bother you that soviets allied with the nazies and split Europe amongst one another in their treaty. Obviously nazies are fucking despicable but so are soviets and both did genocides. Yea, you can go fuck yourself too red fashist.
Dude, you’re arguing with a fascist-loving teenager. Talk about wasting time.
I'm late thirties actually.
I'm begging you to ask some of the surviving jews that were freed from nazi death camps whether they think socialism is the same thing as fascism. They might kick your teeth out though.
Then it's just sad.
Nah mate. You're just out of touch with mainstream politics here in Britain. Jeremy Corbyn defends the USSR. Diane Abbot defended Mao on national tv. John McDonnell's job is "to overthrow capitalism". Or the time John threw Mao's little red book at Osborne. Etc etc.
Mainstream elected MPs. Mainstream opinions.
Yanks are just out of touch with what a political left looks like because they have no left. It makes you think "this person must be a teenager" because the american left simply doesn't exist and you can't imagine what the left over here in europe actually looks like because you have no baseline experience of a left to draw from.
These people are the elected soft left demsocs lmao. But all of this shit would cause americans to start screaming the word tankie or whatever because it's so far outside their experience and education.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=uB4o5n2EGyA
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
No mate because, as I pointed out, they weren't fucking death camps and you're an idiot. You can not cite a single academic source saying that, because none exist.
This has now devolved into you making up genocides that the soviets did not perform in order to justify your support for the nazi genocide of roma performed by finland. Screaming "red fashist" at the end doesn't help.
I'm on the side of objectively good people like Che, Nelson Mandela and Albert Einstein. You're on the side of Hitler and Mengele you absolute tool.
I didn't even make you take the position of defending the nazis, you CHOSE to take this position without prompting.
You saying they are not does not make it so. Soviets were smarter than nazies and didn't keep records as I said so the only numbers are estimated but like the lowest death count you can find is 1.5 miljon but the highest I can find is 8 million. But since most sources agree: prisoners close to death were released and they either died on the way somewhere else or at their destination. The total guesstimates of the total population at their death camps ranges from 14 to 25 million. This also doesn't count the people deported to random villages in Siberia, never to be seen again or the famines they caused by either intentionally or by ridiculous incompetence.
Also note I was defending the Finns not nazies. You can imagine how bad the soviet regime was if nazies seem like a good alternative.
Sure, you're the perfect angel, defending soviet genocides and other atrocities.
I wonder if any of the jews that were freed by the soviets (all of them) would agree. Nah.
Lmao you're pulling figures from the black book of communism now which is widely regarded as a joke. Fucking hilarious.
I also genuinely do not give a fuck about any nazis they killed. Which you are definitely including in your camp deaths as a bad thing. You are literally going to bat for nazis that absolutely deserved execution.
Lol, the black book of communism has numbers like 100 million so no I wasn't. Did your brain break and you just revert to some npc talking points?
So now you are celebrating soviet atrocities, yea you definitely have the moral high ground here.
I'm definitely celebrating the deaths of nazis. Yes.
You are both denying and celebrating the victims of soviet gulags. I guess anyone who the soviets hate is a nazi to you and that would not really surprise me, I have talked to red fashists from the US before, you're the first from the UK though.
I'm getting really bored now. Do you have anything worthwhile to add or just more bullshit?
Not really. You want over most of the red fash talking point I usually get already. The only empty square on my bingo card is "read theory" but we never went over how authoritarian rule is against everything socialism and Marxism stand for. But yea, I have to rotate my phone just to be able to hit reply to this last one and that too much effort to do twice so I'm done too.
Why would I tell a person that defends the nazis to read theory? That's something socialists say to other leftists.
Lmao you are forgetting who actually attacked whom and nothing said in this thread suggests Finns are proud of having to fight with the nazis.
Decimation was considered a harsh punishment even by the standards of the ancient Rome and was abolished. The fact that you use 90% survival rate to defend the ussr just shows how delusional you bolshevik tankies are.
Mate 90% survival rates pre penicillin are incredibly common, let alone in camp prisons as a result of proper prisons overflowing due to world war 2 conditions on top of food problems. Read a book. It wasn't until 1953 that these rates came down to standards that you'd expect when new industrial processes made penicillin widespread in the region. This stuff is extremely basic and is in practically every single book on the topic I shouldn't have to explain it to people but none of you actually read anything.
Oh and by originally from do you mean the American originally from where your great great great grandfather was from there but you never been in said country or barely know anything about it? Or do you mean actually from the Czech republic?
I currently reside in Britain. Half my family are Czech. I have no american relatives.