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"Both parties are the same!"
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2023
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You said there’s nuance but then went on to explain that there isn’t nuance and the only reasonable vote is for Biden. And you’re not wrong. There are a lot of folks pretending to be on the left acting like there’s a whole lot of nuance here, and that voting for someone other than Biden, or not voting at all, is an acceptable option.
None of this precludes advocating for your positions or doing other praxis, but when it comes to voting the answer is clear
There's nuance, because leftists saying voting isn't going to change anything meaningfully as far as moving towards the left is still true.
That is true, but not voting or casting a protest vote right now ensures fascism, under which there will be literally no choice at all.
At least under a democracy there are chances to improve things, like replacing FPTP with a better voting system that will actually allow the left a seat at the table. That’s already happening in some places and there’s a movement (supported by democrats and vehemently opposed by republicans) to enact alternative voting methods.
Unfortunately there’s been so much apathy for decades that the fascists have got their foot solidly in the door. There was nuance years ago, but we squandered it. There’s little point debating left vs liberal when fascism has taken hold. That must be stopped first.
There’s no such thing as moral neutrality in this environment, and as much as it sucks, not voting against fascism is the same as voting for fascism.
Hence my original point, leftists must vote for liberals, even if it isn't ever going to improve the system, and must work themselves to build up leftist structures without hoping for help from liberals. If they don't vote, then fascists take power, and leftists lose the chance to build leftist structures at all.
I do think you're too hopeful that a 2 party Capitalist state designed to change as little as possible would meaningfully improve from within, rather than under pressure from without, but it would be great if you were right about that.
I’m not that hopeful that the left can change the system from within, to be honest, I’m just certain it’s too late to think about that because under fascist rule, not only will things not improve, but many of us will face genocide.
The time for leftist change was 20 years ago, or with any luck, 8 or so years from now after the fascist threat has been quashed. Right now we have to think about unifying like it’s 1932.
Only thing I disagree with is the idea that leftist change was more possible 20 years ago, Capitalism's instability and inherent structural flaws only make themselves more apparent and severe as time goes on, and with that comes potential for change. The left is larger than ever before, and is constantly growing.
Where? And who in the DNC supports this?
Here.
And here’s one resource to support it. There are many others, both local and national.
eta: I’m on mobile so searching and linking is hard, but you can find people running for office who support these efforts by googling the office (senator, mayor, or whatever) and ‘free vote initiative’ or some synonyms. There are some (mostly local) republicans, substantially more democrats, and a huge majority of 3rd party candidates for obvious reasons).
I strongly recommend bringing it up with your representatives. 3rd party and democrats have been teaming up for this, and republicans have been fighting it because FPTP greatly benefits them and they know it.
That apathy has been earned.
So is the illusion of being able to shift the Overton window in any way more important than saving your supporters from genocide?
Reread the original comment. It's absolutely important to vote as loss prevention, but you're never going to get meaningful systemic change towards the left via voting.
Vote to protect, actually make grassroots movements like unionizing and organizing to move to the left.
Answer my question. Which is more important, shifting the Overton window or preventing genocide? You only get to pick one
Reread the original comment. It's absolutely important to vote as loss prevention, but you're never going to get meaningful systemic change towards the left via voting.
Vote to protect, actually make grassroots movements like unionizing and organizing to move to the left.
Answer my question. Which is more important, shifting the Overton window or preventing genocide? You only get to pick one.
Both are important, and you don't get to only pick one. You can do both, prevent fascism and genocide, while also building up leftist structures like unions and networks of mutual aid.
That's like asking you if you're going to wipe your ass after you shit or wash your hands, and saying you can only pick 1. This is the absolute dumbest "would you rather" and should be ignored and tossed in the trash.
In the real world, you can only get one. So have some courage to be honest about what you're really saying and choose:
A) Shift the Overton window to the left, which will 100% guarantee Trump gets re-elected with the murder of millions
B) Vote for a Democrat which will keep Trump out of office and save millions of lives, but keep the Overton window center-right for the rest of the decade
Pick one. I dare you to truly be honest and do it.
No, you terminally online radlib.
A) shift the Overton Window to the left via grassroots movements such as Unionization, organizing, setting up networks of mutual aid, building parallel structures, and advocate for others to do the same, while plugging your nose and voting Democrat to keep fascists out of office, LIKE I SAID IN THE ORIGINAL POST.
B) do whatever the fuck you're doing, and try to encourage voter apathy while absolutely railing against anyone even suggesting both voting democrat and unionizing.
I pick option A, both denying Trump and also shifting the Overton Window to the left. You pick option B, doing absolutely jack shit while screaming online and also voting Democrat, leaving America an increasingly far-right state with nothing to to show for it in several years time.
Touch grass.
Nope, you're not weaseling out of the fact that you can't admit you care more about your political agenda than stopping genocide and protecting your would-be constituents to me. You have to make a choice, and I'm gonna keep repeating that choice over and over until you make it.
Now, you only have two mutually exclusive choices.
A) Shift the Overton window to the left, which will 100% guarantee Trump gets re-elected with the murder of millions
B) Vote for a Democrat which will keep Trump out of office and save millions of lives, but keep the Overton window center-right for the rest of the decade
Pick one. I dare you to.
I'm sorry, neither myself nor those I care about are privileged enough to both support the status quo by voting Democrat without also organizing and unionizing. Unlike privileged liberals like yourself, many people are struggling and can't afford what they need, or are targeted by fascists for being a sexual, ethnic, or gender minority.
I won't apologize for saying that it's not enough to vote Democrat alone, and that people should both vote Democrat and make meaningful change on the ground via Unionization, organization, and education.
Pick one: wash your hands, or wipe your ass?
I'm sorry, no one in the real world is going to be fooled by your blatant attempts to weasel out of choosing between your politica agenda and the safety of everyone in the country no matter how many alt accounts you dig out.
Now, you can only get one. So have some courage to be honest about what you’re really saying and choose:
A) Shift the Overton window to the left, which will 100% guarantee Trump gets re-elected with the murder of millions
B) Vote for a Democrat which will keep Trump out of office and save millions of lives, but keep the Overton window center-right for the rest of the decade
Pick one. I dare you to truly be honest and do it.
It's the exact fucking opposite.
Every time a Democrat has won, the US has slowly become more left and passed left wing policies like "hey maybe more people should be able to afford healthcare" and "shit we better do something about the climate". It is undeniable that Obamacare and the Inflation Reduction Act are the furthest left legislation of their time.
What's happened every time a conservative has won however? You saw the Tea Party enabled and their takeover of the Republican Party because they won in 2010. You saw Trump enabled and takeover the Republican Party because he won in 2016. Every time Republicans have won, they've taken it as vindication and confirmation that their far right movement is successful.
You want the window to move left? Make sure the right wing loonies don't win an election. If you can find a way to do that and also not support Democrats, I'm all ears.
I actually agree with you wholeheartedly and that's what the tankies I think you intended to reply to need to hear.
Oh my bad, I took your comment at face value. I think. I thought you legitimately thought that Democrats winning caused the window to stay center right. Sorry about that!
But yeah, it was quite something to realize that every Republican victory since 2000 has resulted in things being pushed even further right than before. It makes it fairly clear that there's only one way to stop the country from moving right.
It's all good fam, it happens.
I just hope like hell Trump isn't actually re-elected. I fear, though, this time around his goons are gonna be the ones to try to rig the election this time.
I'm hopeful we're safe from that, but it pays to be vigilant. Trump and his ilk aren't holding the necessary offices to rig the election. The federal government is democrat, and Republican losses in 2022 have given Democrats a lot more representation and power in many swing states.
Yes, nothing meaningful has changed in the US in 100 years.
I suppose it might look that way if you aren't a minority or a woman or gay. If nothing meaningful has changed in the last 100 years, then we could go back to the policies of the 1900s-1920s without any difference. And I very much doubt anyone wants to do that, because there are very big differences.
The things that did change did not start with voting. Especially because women couldn't vote to get the right to vote.
TIL that amending the US constitution doesn't require voting.
Re-read this:
So they started with the liberal framework of free expression and ended with voting? Good point I guess.
That’s how democracy works… ? Where do you think the issues come from that wind up on the ballot?
e: sorry if I’m missing sarcasm.
I just don't know why the Onus is never on Joe Biden himself. Why is it that we feel like he doesn't have to earn any votes at all?
"Am I so out of touch? No, it's the voters who are wrong."
No, it's more like "LOL you have to vote for me, or the fascist will win". Democrats love opponents like Trump, because he helps them fundraise like crazy.
It also means they don't have to do shit but be second worst to a literal fascist. And it's disgusting how comfortable they are in such a position.
The onus isn't on him because voting for him is for our benefit, not his.
It's to our lesser detriment. There's a difference.
Voting for someone other than Biden or not voting is an absolutely acceptable option, and I’m not pretending to be a leftist when I do so. I have Ranked Choice Voting in my state, but even if I didn’t, I would vote for who I most want in office because I have no faith in either democrats or republicans to fix the most important issues currently plaguing 99% of the people. Vilifying people for voting third party — when third parties are currently the only viable presidential and congressional solution apart from a violent revolution — is misguided.
Democrats are not your friends; you deserve better.
Non voters vote too. They vote for 'I'll have what she's having.' then they complain when she chooses shit.
We're not voting for friends.
Leftist 3rd parties split votes between leftists and the more conservative liberals (who are the vast majority), increasing the chance of a Republican victory. I fully support right-wing people voting Libertarian though :)
With the politics of the U.S. population, and violent revolution would likely be fascist.
Just a random note: Most proper libertarians (not those weird tea party fucks) make Democrats look positively authoritarian on social issues. Economics, no, but social? Absolutely.
True. I considered myself a libertarian when I was in high school (mostly for cannabis legalization and guns, lol). Then, some of my first job experiences were pretty bad (persistent wage theft on multiple jobs, an owner coercing sex from minors, etc), and started becoming more of a leftist.
I get that. Libertarians have a bad habit of downplaying economic hardship by saying that markets will solve themselves. Maybe there's a world in which that might work, but it isn't this one.
I do think that some progressive influencers know that the DNC is much closer to the GOP on social issues. Attacking libertarians is, in my opinion, a calculated lie designed to distract from that fact.
Tell me you don't understand math & game theory without telling me you don't understand math & game theory.