this post was submitted on 16 Nov 2023
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The environment being devastated is mostly a fair criticism. China is making huge efforts toward sustainability today, but maybe too late to make enough of a difference.
Hundreds of millions died, yes, that's what happens when 80 years go by in a country of hundreds of millions. I don't see your point.
How do I feel about their treatment of indigenous Tibetans? I think China did a heroic thing by ending slave labor in Tibet. I'm not sure if they took the best path toward liberating Tibetan slaves while also not erasing their culture. I don't know if such a thing was possible, and my personal opinion is that if it wasn't, it's preferable for them to be free and not keep a reactionary culture than keep their slave state intact, the same way I don't care about preserving Confederate monuments in the US despite their cultural importance.
All in all, for a real, existing country, China has a really good batting average.
not really. it's an entirely disingenuous criticism used by the imperial core to deflect deflect deflect.
China was years ahead on the Paris agreement while America was years behind on it. And America imports ~19% of its total annual imports from China lately. Meaning America is relying on Chinese commodity production (and Chinese emissions) for its economic needs, while failing to meet its climate agreement benchmarks. American citizens have a way higher per capita carbon emission than Chinese citizens. China is trying to prepare for climate change by reducing emissions. America is preparing for climate change by scapegoating China and militarizing its border, and enabling genocides in Israel and Yemen.
I agree that in the context of what's going on worldwide, China is doing much better for sustainability than the rest of the world. So, in a sense, criticism is invalid because it would be better directed at the countries with higher emissions per capita, as you say. Criticism doesn't exist in a vacuum and we should steer clear of anticommunism and sinophobia.
On the other hand, there's no way China should keep its level of industrial growth and usage of fossil fuels indefinitely in the face of world threatening climate change. I think it's a fair criticism to make when trying to assess how future socialism should look. In other words, China may be doing very well for itself by keeping per capita emissions very low relative to the rest of the world, but even still, it burns amounts of fossil fuels that are fundamentally at odds with trying to prevent climate collapse. Is that mostly due to Western capital? Yeah, pretty much.
I agree. That's the scariest part of all of this. If any country decreases its industrial output, it decreases its ability to wage war, which means it increases its chances of getting invaded by a less principled country who continues to increase its industrial output. So all nations basically see decreasing industrial output as letting their guard down and opening themselves up to invasion. And if they get invaded/annexed by more powerful nations who don't care about the climate, their industrial output will still increase, just under a new regime imposed from the outside. So there's a global prisoners' dilemma here. I don't foresee anyone letting their guard down by decreasing industrial output. Significantly below international agreements which already aren't being followed anyway.
Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, died directly as a result of the Chinese cultural revolution and Mao's great leap forward and I don't think it should just be brushed off as an unfortunate side effect of a necessary revolution. But I generally agree with the principle behind the rest of it.
How many millions were dying in China in the famines that would happen every few years, in no small part due to the colonialist status quo? It doesn't justify all the excesses of the revolution, but it doesn't help anybody to keep looking for a nuanced position absent of context.
I agree
How many people did the American revolutionaries kill in their pursuit of manifest destiny after forming their own nation?