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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2023
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To a degree, yes. The only reason Israel hasn't invaded Gaza full force already is that Gazans have Hamas as a credible threat. Obviously not enough Israelis have been killed yet to fully end the genocide, but Hamas is forcing Israel to think twice.
Israel's reluctance to just full on destroy Gaza is not because they were afraid of Hamas, it was because they knew that they would be judged and treated unambiguously as 'the bad guys'. It seems like October 7th was a gift to Israeli government itching for a justification to just go all in.
Your logic would have been that Israel would have been scared off by the October 7th, but they instead decided they were fully justified to inflict as much Palestinian collateral damage as it takes to eliminate Hamas. It seems Israel will be happy if Gaza is nothing more than a smoldering crater by the end of it, and declare itself justified in response to the Hamas attack.
So no, Hamas has done nothing to prevent genocide and if anything has helped contribute to the possibility of it happening. IDF is still be directly wholly responsible for their actions, but it seems their hands were at least somewhat politically tied before.
So you would say Palestine should have just rolled over and accepted the genocide? STFU, that's a disgusting view on society. You sound like you only care about preserving the status quo.
No, they shouldn't just accept the oppression. However I was saying that Hamas is not, in fact, staying Israel's hand. Current events make that blatantly self-evident. As bad as Israel was before, it was nothing compared to their retribution for Hamas attack now.
Israel wasn't holding back out of fear of Hamas, Israel was holding back due to: -Trying to achieve their goals without as obviously looking like the bad guy. They think Hamas attack gives them a free pass, so they are taking it. -Conflicts among their government. At times the hardcore Zionists are steering things, but not always and even while steering they face opposition that disagree with them. Again, it's hard for the reasonable voices to speak up now without being perceived as pro-Hamas (USA had this same phenomenon after 9/11, where any concern about broad anti-Islamic hatred was perceived as being "with the terrorists").
They certainly shouldn't have to put up with Israel's treatment, and I will confess I don't know what can work. I've heard tell of several occurrences where the right answer seemed to be just in reach before some extremist Zionist or Palestinian tanked the whole thing. However, the Hamas approach is evil, vile and even demonstrably ineffective at keeping Israel from inflicting harm on Palestinians.
I would assume that the extremist palestinian or Zionist you heard of was Israeli propaganda. IMO, the only reasonable voices are the pro Hamas ones. Imagine if Jews had had a group like Hamas in 1939. Don't you think the Holocaust would have been significantly less bad if a group of Jews had been able to effectively terrorize the Nazis? In 1939-1945, the only good German was a dead German. I don't see why it should be different now.
Israeli propaganda would blame Zionists? That would be an odd stance. I refer to various documented peace talks. A very obvious one was when a Jewish nationalist assassinated Yitzhak Rabin, derailing the peace process of the time. That is hardly Israeli propaganda.
No, if the Jewish population resorted to indiscrimate terrorism that would have not overcome nazi oppression. See this current scenario, Israel was not scared off by a big terrorist attack, they took it as a free pass to drop any pretense of restraint. Now if Hamas had specifically attacked IDF or police, I could see, but they explicitly targeted civilians. It is hypocritcal to be pissed over Israeli harm done to civilians while explicitly taking a pro-Hamas stance.
Hamas did not explicitly target civilians, they launched rockets indiscriminately, and targeted military. They aren't able to aim rockets and have them hit Israel, thanks to US funding. Israel has never been interested in peace, it's not like that assassination was the reason it didn't happen. The propaganda is the lie that they do want peace. Israel has always only wanted palestine's land, which they've been colonizing for nearly a century.
It would certainly have been better if Jews had done some terrorism on Nazis. But by your logic, you'd be telling the Jews to cut out the terrorism, because it's making the Nazis not want to come to the table. Violence is the only thing genocidal people understand. Until you make then bleed, they will never give in.
listen to yourself, this is abhorrent.
Killing genociders is good, actually.
Hand-wavey justifications are so in right now.
Not a justification. If a country is committing genocide, it is good to kill them. Period.
“It’s not a justification, I’m just saying they’re in the right for this reason.”
Do you know what the word “justification” means? Are you arguing based on some specific meaning that only you know about? I feel like I’m being gaslit, next you’re gonna say that you never said killing civilians indiscriminately was a good thing.
Yes, I am not justifying it because it does not need to be justified. It is always good to kill genocidal people. I don't think I said that killing civilians is good, just that it's necessary. When they make it us or them, it is morally correct to choose yourself.
You can say that’s not what you’re doing all the live-long day, my guy, it doesn’t change the fact that what you’re LITERALLY DOING is providing justification. Just because you believe it’s an objective truth, given you can’t even consider the idea you may be wrong, doesn’t just make it objectively true.
Bro, I'm an American who supports Palestine, you really think I haven't considered that I might be wrong? That's the entire reason I know I'm right, because I discovered that all of the propaganda I grew up seeing on the news was wrong.
In 1940s Germany, the only good German was a dead German. The same is true now for Israel. If the term "Never Again" means ANYTHING to you, you support killing as many Israelis as necessary to prevent a second holocaust.
this just in, we’re in a complete socioeconomic and political analogue of the 1940s and it only took one very smart, propaganda-immune american to see it. have fun being radicalized.
This is a very weird thing to say, because obviously there is such a thing as truth. Which means it's entirely possible I understand the truth. But you're acting as if I couldn't possibly have simply studied politics long enough to know what the truth is.
Most issues have a correct answer, and you either agree with it or you're wrong. I suggest you spend more time trying to be correct, and less trying to be right.
I’m done trying to take you seriously. Go be enlightened somewhere else, you intellectual, you.