this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2026
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Privacy
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likewise, i can read the news stories about the lawsuits and the corporations ignoring switches and collecting that data anyway.
also remember privacy and security are related but are two different things.
I am open to hearing evidence that iphone hardening is a myth.
again: can't prove a negative.
you show me transmission of data can be stopped.
I didn’t make the claim that iPhone hardening is a myth, you did. I am open to you providing something to back it up, as I have not seen anything that would.
You said you can read news stories about the toggles not doing anything. May I see the news stories that show the options in iOS don’t do anything?
you made the point that it works. here's one example i googled in 30 seconds. here's one for apple i also found in another 10.
your turn i guess.
I want to keep it 100% with you: I did not make the point that it works. I made the point that your claim (and apologies, I’m paraphrasing here) “there is no way to believe it works unless you personally can see the code” is absurd and I will stand by that.
The first link you sent seems to be about google. You were talking about iPhones though. Are you trying to make a broader point about more than just iOS?
The mysk case referenced in your next link (nov. 2022 analysis of a mid 2021 iOS version) actually had an interesting update this year: all the wiretapping type charges got thrown out but the deceptive practices claims were allowed to proceed. It’s likely the plaintiffs will win that one since the company has significantly changed the wording around the settings controls in question in the intervening five and a half years of development.
Despite how this might seem, I’m not trying to fight you. I want to bring this back to how you initially said “ios hardening is a myth”. I really think you have a cohesive approach and argument to make but you’re not tying it all together because you think that left on their own claims like the above and the one about not being able to trust settings unless you can see the source are self evident but they’re not.
as a kind of backwater waste of time discussion spur I think that specifically the source reading line of reasoning pushes people away from security and privacy because it excludes a person who can’t analyze the source code because they are unable to effectively read it.
Normal person who can’t read code even if it were in front of them in plaintext: “well fuck me I guess”
Now it’s extremely clear to me from your replies that you feel you’re in some kind of fight or something. I don’t want that. We don’t have to keep talking if this is stressing you out and it’s not a win or a loss.
then we are arguing different things. i'm not exactly saying having the source code is the only way to assure a device is private. i'm arguing an US company known to take part in the PRISM program and involved in the currently openly fascist admin using the surveillance to hunt people cannot be trusted at all. i can sound oppositional sometimes but i'm not arguing in bad faith at all.
also "reading the source code" is something done in community, not individually. this is a very important distinction. i don't know the linux kernel is safe because it goes right over my head, but there are plenty of well intentioned eyes on it that do in our community.
iphone hardening is to me like installing proprietary antivirus software on windows. you are not any safer at all, and the impression of safety and the dropping of our guards that it causes is detrimental for real safety. we shouldn't be wasting time thinking about ineffective half measures, we should want to be safe.
I don’t think you’re arguing in bad faith or being oppositional at all and I think it’s good you care about this stuff. I care about it too.
TBH I kinda get the impression you have a bit more of an idealist take on things than I do.
PRISM is not something companies or individuals choose to comply with. The NSA demands data under color of law (section 702!) with disputes mediated in secret courts run by judges handpicked for those roles.
Avoiding the possibility of data collection through the cloud service vector doesn’t protect the user because every telecommunications company I am aware of is known to have complied with fisa demands, most germane to our topic: Verizon very famously. So even if a user isn’t using any cloud service that handles their data, their data still gets handled by telecom companies doing the exact same bulk collection of encrypted transmissions for processing at a later date.
No American can escape PRISM without completely leaving all telecommunications behind no matter the manufacturer of their computer or the programmer of its operating system and software.
I use Linux everyday and have as a main os for a long time.
The Linux kernel is not safe. In the past year there have been high cvss bugs and vulnerabilities discovered which were present for decades (yes, with an “s”). There are first party accounts of direct infiltration attempts and evidence of covert ones with varying degrees of success from nothing to long con winners like lz.
All operating systems have bugs and vulnerabilities which impact their security and safety.
From a laypersons perspective even assuming they are familiar with the concept of open source, how can they be expected to put their trust in a community that can’t even keep itself safe?
Remember that interactions between a person and some company are mediated by law. If Google or Apple screws them over there’s at least the pretense of some recompense. If your average user gets hit by a deserialization error in Linux they can’t come back on kernel.org, they’re just flapping in the breeze!
I do not use proprietary antivirus on windows and generally point people away from it except for some unique situations.
You are mistaken about proprietary antivirus on windows. While recently there has been a big effort to kick them out of ring0, they do actually perform a task with measurable degrees of completeness using real techniques for securing code execution and user data. You might think as I do for my own purposes that they’re not doing you any good but no matter how much we both might hate norton, it is doing something.
Specifically for many users third party antivirus is a trusted secure process they can rely on when they have no baseline of trust for the operating system.
The above is not gibberish. Many people fundamentally do not trust windows and cannot make a clear determination how to proceed when some dialogue box pops up (think uac of olde). You and I hate the bright orange, yellow and red windows of third party antivirus but they’re using those colors to make them clearly stand out from the os’ warnings.
We may see an intermediary between us and links in our emails as a waste of time but for a lot of people the process of clicking only the links with the big green checkmark next to them (indicating the destination has been vetted by the third party antivirus and isn’t malicious) is one that keeps them safe.
Could that be accomplished with retraining? Yes but no one is doing it and generally retraining efforts in organizations don’t actually do a good job and leave users feeling confident enough.
Ios hardening is effective and is not a half measure unless evaluated against a bar for security that excludes using public telecommunications networks.
this is a good thing and shows the good faith effort to make it as safe as possible. disclosed and fixed vulnerabilities are one less in the arsenal of bad actors.
though i mean safe as in "safer from backdoors or interference" rather than "safer from vulnerabilies and bugs".
if you read most of their license agreements, i'm not. especially the free ones the sort of people you described could be inclined to install, a lot of them are pretty much spyware themselves despite implementing real safeguards against (other) viruses.
the regular user's inclination to trust antiviruses is precisely the type of false safety i was alluding to in my previous post, that we shouldn't be encouraging.
crux of the issue right there: i'm not from the US.
we can escape prism and more of the us privacy violations so long as we don't run wiretap us software which, like you explained, is subject to their whims. IOS is not the place anyone can have much choice by design. android devices are still bad (actually worse OOTB) but can have the wiggle room for real hardening.
I think again, that you are perhaps a bit too idealistic here.
The secret fisa courts run by handpicked judges mediating pushback against demands that someone or some company give up any data they have only apply to Americans.
So the fake made up process to keep the us government from performing bulk data collection on citizens only applies to citizens. Noncitizens have no similar protection under law, fake or otherwise.
Not to break out the rasp and put too fine a point on it: noncitizens have no protection under law, fake or otherwise.
We already know that us telecommunications infrastructure has hardware (not software, baseband level) backdoors built into it by design in order to facilitate spying. I can say this for a fact because it was a low key huge deal that the lawful intercept backdoor was compromised a year or two ago.
Anti communists like to scream about huawei telecom equipment being compromised by the evil ccp, but rarely make the factual statement that it is all designed with built in backdoors to meet the requirements of the nations who order it. All those nations also use telecom equipment backdoors just as much as American intelligence agencies do. When nations rip out Chinese made stuff and replace it with something from what passes for an ally at the moment they aren’t giving up their backdoors.
Just off the top of my head, and this post likely has some awkward phrasing I owe you an apology for because it is all off the dome, the English had to do a heavily redacted investigation into their own complicity with telecom spying that was done on British soil by Americans as part of the prism program with no us oversight to protect British citizens.
All that is to say: even if you live in a nation outside the five, nine, fifteen, ct, club du berne, special committee or any other intelligence sharing organization and your data never flows into American jurisdiction and you run some ideal operating system and service compliment that has no surface for interface with the authorities, you are not safe from the bulk collection of encrypted data under prism.
Which is what prism is. Bulk collection of encrypted data for processing at a later date.
The two possible ways to get safe about it are to be in and be accessing systems in the Russian federation or the prc. Neither is a good shield because China isn’t trying super hard to keep spooks out and the Russians are currently in the Treehouse Made from Old Pallets stage of their new Internet.
You cannot escape prism because it does not require access to your device and is not constrained by borders. I encourage you to investigate which Android systems can be hardened to the extent of ios. I have concluded after years of observation that it is graphene and only graphene.
Okay with that mega downer out of the way:
When I brought up the phenomenal amount of long running vulnerabilities in the kernel (which I hate other people pointing to because it doesn’t reflect the extent to which ai tooling has allowed much more extensive and expansive testing but coincides with a change in the maintainers policy around the cve system!) and the lz fiasco, I was hoping it would be clear that vulnerabilities and bugs often are backdoors and interference, we have recent examples of that as well as a historical record of explicit attempts to insert bugs and vulnerabilities as literal backdoors and interference and there is a frightening pattern present even in my own favorite distribution Debian that alludes to that process.
I said those things to illustrate that to the extent there is a community reading the source it’s either merely equivalent to the private software world, infiltrated by operatives or populated with useful idiots like the eos knucklehead who said graphenes security is for pedophiles.
That situation combined with the fact that there is no pretense of legal protection for a person running open source means that it’s a pretty hard sell for regular people to rely on code reading instead of recognizing that the control causes a change to happen.
Again my point is that you are making a wild, indefensible leap of reasoning and judgement when you say that the only way to tell if a control is doing something is to read the code.
I also maintain that you are mistaken about antivirus. Even if the third party program relies eitirely on the hooks within the defender subsystem and only provides recognizable warnings that don’t slide off the users frontal lobe like butter across a skillet that is safety.
You even admitted that antivirus could be “implementing real safeguards”.
There are terrible antivirus programs and some that are pretty good. The presence of data collection in a eula doesn’t mean it’s a bad program. People choose to use Facebook knowing that it’s a nightmare panopticon because they want what it’s providing.
I don’t think you’re arguing in bad faith or being oppositional, what it sounds like to me is that you believe in the ability to escape bulk surveillance of encrypted transmissions and that it’s possible for all users to aspire to understand what’s going on at all (or enough to make informed decisions!) times and therefore a method of securing oneself that doesn’t provide 100% protection from that spying or put all those controls in front of the user with as much granularity as possible doesn’t count.
To bring it all the way back to the start though, ios hardening is real.