this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2026
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[–] tootoughtoremember@lemmy.world 5 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

China-Taiwan

Which modern example are you referring to, the 17th century mass migration of Han Chinese under the Dutch or the more recent relocation of Republic of China government under the Kuomintang in 1949?

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 6 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago) (6 children)

The invasion plans. As your question its self notes, you can colonise somewhere that's already been colonised. Happens throughout history, as you just noted.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

Look, I support Taiwan's right to sovereignty as much as anyone else, but I think this one doesn't fit with your other examples because Taiwan is ethnically Han Chinese and shares a history with mainland China, so this is more like a dispute between cousins. It's closer to if the British tried to take back over the US, or if the French decided Quebec belongs to them again.

China-Tibet is a better example (which gets forgotten about unfortunately often these days), or even China-Xinjiang. In both cases, the PRC colonized land that didn't belong to them, and began forced assimilations of the people with different language, culture, ethnicity, and religion. And pretty much imprisoning, re-educating, and enslaving anyone they didn't exterminate or force into exile.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 4 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The native Taiwanese are not Han Chinese. No.

That's as bad as claiming the Irish are British people, so The Troubles in Northern Ireland shouldn't have been an issue.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 4 points 6 hours ago (1 children)

Except it's not the same at all. The Irish people lived in Ireland before the English lived in England. British rule in Ireland is a classic example of colonialism.

The native Taiwanese are closely related to the Ryukyuan people, and by extension the Japanese (who are likely descended from the Ryukyuans, at least linguistically, not the other way around, although modern Ryukyuan has many elements borrowed from Japanese due to later colonization).

The Taiwanese government though is primarily Mandarin-speaking Han Chinese. If your point is that those aren't the native Taiwanese, well you'd be right, but that would also imply that the ROC is the colonizer in this situation, which you could argue, but that detracts from your criticism of the PRC aggression against the ROC.

The current conflict in Taiwan is primarily between the PRC and the ROC, with the PRC being the aggressors and the ROC just wanting to maintain their independence. It's a conflict between two Mandarin-speaking Han Chinese governments with diametrically opposed political philosophies.

I don't know what kind of relations exist between the Han Taiwanese and the original Taiwanese ethnic groups. I'll admit I'm ignorant on that subject. But that's not what the PRC's aggression against Taiwan is about at all.

It's just far more complex than the other examples which are blatant cultural imperialism and ethnic supremacism, whereas the PRC-ROC conflict isn't about language or culture or ethnicity, but about alignment and political philosophy, and to a lesser degree economic systems (because PRC is capitalistic as fuck, it's just state-controlled capitalism like – surprise! – fascism (also heavily nationalistic)).

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 0 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Saying the ROC/KMT invasion and brutalizing of the Native Taiwanese was Colonialism (the KMT ran a military dictatorship for over 25 years there) - doesn't detract from current criticism of the PRC.

You can have multiple Colonialists/Imperialist interests repeat behavior over time in a region. It just means it's a tough time for the Native Taiwanese.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I didn't say it detracts from criticism of the PRC, I said your argument that the native Taiwanese aren't ethnically Han Chinese detracts from your other argument that the PRC is attempting settler-colonialism in Taiwan.

If you actually read anything that I wrote, you'd see that I'm not minimizing the imperialism of the PRC. I'm simply stating that their aggression against Taiwan is not an example of settler-colonialism. It's still a bad thing, but it's a different kind of bad thing.

If you want to point out examples of the PRC doing settler-colonialism, those exist. I even mentioned a few. But their aggression against Taiwan is not one (but it is, again, still wrong).

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 0 points 5 hours ago (1 children)
[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I don't see what mindset has to do with this, unless you mean you're in the mindset that you can't be wrong and that anyone who corrects your argument must be the one who's wrong?

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 5 hours ago (1 children)

I'm against the concept of people "correcting" things that are subjective matters of perception.

Colonialism is a mindset too, China has explicitly stated Taiwan is part of their domain, that's enough for me to view it as Colonialism.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 4 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

It's not a subjective matter of perception. The PRC and the ROC are in a protracted civil war with each other. The ROC views themself as the rightful government in exile. The PRC views them as separatists.

Settler-colonialism is about displacing and/or assimilating ethnic/cultural minority groups. It's a form of ethnic cleansing and cultural imperialism. It's fundamentally not what this situation is about, according to the facts. Not my opinion, not my perception.

The fact that you can't see how it's different means you're incapable of grasping nuance, and I don't see why I'm bothering to continue trying to persuade you. Especially since from the beginning, I wasn't even disagreeing with you. Just correcting a small error that weakens your argument. Feel free to double down more though, I don't care anymore.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)

Plenty of Settler Colonialism has been done as part of civil wars, because plenty of wars have the killing and replacing of identity as the motif.

Happened in the Punjabi and Tamil regions of india for instance. You can't just go "yeah but that was during a civil war" and have the ethnic violence or identity replacement aspects go away.

[–] stumu415@lemmy.zip 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

That is not going to happen. I wish people would stop spreading this propaganda. Taiwan and China military threats go back to the 18th century. It got more real since 1949 when Chiang lost the civil war and he and his government fled to Taiwan.

Anyone who understands Chinese politics, knows there is no appetite to go war in either faction. There is no support from the people as the local economy is going through a transition and unemployment is increasing.

Xi and his predecessors needed to sound tough on Taiwan because this is part of Maoist heritage.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Taiwan should go for a name change (to Taiwan rather than the Republic Of CHINA), and get the KMT party also change their name (as it currently translates to The Chinese Nationalists Party).

But they don't. They're not making any removals of Chinese naming on their nation, because they feel it would anger China. So they're far from a bastion of independence and sovereignty.

If the tough talk is all bluster, then they should take further steps towards their own national identity (rather than identifying as China 2).

[–] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 8 points 17 hours ago

Looks like you made the ml crowd mad with that one. Good job

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 0 points 8 hours ago (2 children)

Ok, but invading a country, or even annexing part of said country does not necessarily mean that the country doing the invading/annexing is doing settler colonialism. They have to explicitly be exterminating or otherwise forcibly removing the native population, with the goal of ethic replacement.

If you want a clear-cut example, beyond Palestine, then Morocco has been settler-colonizing Western Sahara for decades.

I get that's not as sexy as talking about China/Taiwan relations on Lemmy, but learning about something outside of the usual purview of political discussion on this website certainly wouldn't hurt.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (1 children)

Optimistic of you to suggest China will treat the native Taiwanese better than the current nation-state of Taiwan. Tribes (such as the Truku) are still forced out of their homes, forbidden traditional hunting rights, and losing aspects of language.

...so hey, maybe YOU learning something wouldn't hurt too (god I hate it when one person starts talking down to another). That said I'll look into Morocco.

P.S There's also such a thing as a Paper Genocide (erasure). Colonialism is not simply defined as "extermination and ethnic replacement of native people" - I think you've confused Genocide and Colonialism. Two related but different concepts... Also you can Colonise non-native people, eg. The Maori, who have only occupied NZ since the 1300s, and then later were Colonised by the British.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) (2 children)

I'm not suggesting that one way or another, because the PRC does not currently have control over Taiwan. I do not know how they would treat the native Taiwanese population, because no such thing has happened.

You just gave me an example of the current Taiwanese government engaging in ethnic cleansing of the native population, though. Which would seem to me, to undermine the assertion that China's mere intent to invade Taiwan counts as settler-colonialism, when a much more clear-cut example is happening right now, not under PRC rule.

My point is that words mean things. Settler Colonialism isn't just "when a country I don't like does a bad thing", it's a very specific process of ethic replacement, carried out in the US and Canada, South Africa, Palestine, Western Sahara, among other places.

But China having poor relations with Taiwan over a civil war that never ended, just isn't an example of settler colonialism.

[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 0 points 6 hours ago

I agree that what the PRC is doing (or threatening to do) to Taiwan isn't an example of settler-colonialism. It's aggression and infringement of sovereign borders, but not settler-colonialism.

However, there are other examples of the PRC doing settler colonialism. I pointed this out to the other commenter thinking it would help them strengthen their argument, but they doubled-down because they seem more intent on "being right" than on being correct.

Anyway, the PRC does do settler-colonialism in Tibet, in Xinjiang, in Inner Mongolia, and to a lesser extent (because of previous ~~assimilation campaigns~~ settler-colonialism) in the Cantonese-speaking regions of the south and to their various ethnic minority groups.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world -2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

"when a country I don't like does a bad thing" <--- no one said that, stop being a dick.

The examples I gave were because they're current focal points of conjecture and conflicts in the world. But everyone's gotta arc up because everyone's got a fucking opinion on China.

I don't give a shit about China one way or the other. Everyone in these discussions - even when all participants are intelligent - starts pretending that they're part of some world summit deciding the fate of the galaxy over fucking words and opinions.

None of the discussion is all that important. It's not going to decide anything.

...and yeah, we've already said that you can stack Colonialism so yeah, maybe China would be just as bad as Taiwan. Just a question of how far they go with their desire for "reunification" and what that means. None of this shit is up to us.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The examples I gave were because they're current focal points of conjecture and conflicts in the world. But everyone's gotta arc up because everyone's got a fucking opinion on China.

But notably, not settler colonialism. I can't think of why you'd bring it up as an example other than to signal your opinions about China. Because as I've repeatedly explained, is not doing settler Colonialism to Taiwan.

You're the one who seems to be bringing your opinion to this discussion, not me.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 0 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

That's okay, you seem to me to be very much gate keeping and protective of settler colonialism as if it's something good.

You seem particularly protective when it comes to anyone suggesting China or Russia have interests or intentions in that direction.

But we don't have to agree just because we discussed it do we? You know, the Internet is too up tight and just constantly wants to debate to the death. I can't be bothered bro.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

That's okay, you seem to me to be very much gate keeping and protective of settler colonialism as if it's something good.

Lmfao what??? You're doing an awful lot of putting words in my mouth over this. Look, you can just take the L. Being wrong on the internet isn't the end of the world.

Patiently explaining a definition to you doesn't mean I endorse the thing I'm defining.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago)

One country saying another country is their domain is a Colonial outlook despite all your "Well actually - the West Sahara is a better match for what I think" gatekeeping of "pure settler colonialism" or whatever the fuck you're doing.

Great dude, you have a strict and pure definition. Like I said, you're defending your preferred version of Colonialism as of it's something good, to be guarded.

[–] Fluke@feddit.uk 0 points 8 hours ago (1 children)

A far more prominent example would be what Russia has been doing with Crimea for decades.

[–] SpookyBogMonster@lemmy.ml 0 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

I don't even think that's an especially good example.

Crimea has a predominantly ethnically Russian, and Russian speaking, population. The Russians aren't replacing Russians with Russians. Russia did annex Crimea in likely contravention of international law, which we might think is bad. But that doesn't make it settler-Colonialism.

Now, Russia has been adopting out Ukrainian babies in its occupied territories to Russian families, something Putin is wanted by the ICC for, so that would be a much closer example.

But even that, I feel, isn't as clear cut an example as Palestine or Western Sahara. Russia hasn't been putting Ukrainians onto reservations or anything like that. Doing so would compromise the national identity of the Russian Federation as a multi-ethnic state. An identity it relies on for domestic legitimacy. Russia just isn't framing its invasion of Ukraine as a war of ethnic extermination. They're explicitly framing Ukrainians as a kind of junior partner in a conception of a "greater Russia" that can stand up to The West.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

Russia has framed the invasion of Ukraine in ethnic terms, saying that the areas invaded are Russian because the Russian language is spoken there. At the same time they're phasing out the speaking of Ukrainian in occupied areas.

Belarus under went similar policies and there's a name for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification

From that page:

In 2020, a set of amendments to the Russian constitution was approved by the State Duma[67] and later the Federation Council.[68] One of the amendments enshrined the Russian nation as the "state-forming nationality" (Russian: государствообразующий народ) and Russian the “language of the state-forming nationality”.[69] The amendment has been met with criticism from Russia's minorities[70][71] who argue that it goes against the principle that Russia is a multinational state and will only marginalize them further.[72] The amendments were welcomed by Russian nationalists, such as Konstantin Malofeev[73] and Nikolai Starikov.[74] The changes in Constitution were preceded by "Strategy of government's national policy of Russian Federation", issued in December 2018, which stated that "all-Russian civic identity is founded on Russia cultural dominant, inherent to all nations of Russian Federation".[75]

This is part of the Russian World doctrine:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world

The concept of the "Russian world" is linked to Russian neo-imperialism.[8] President Vladimir Putin established the government-funded Russkiy Mir Foundation to foster the idea of the "Russian world" abroad.

Russia is not what it used to be, Dugan got to Vlad, and he's not as interested in a multicultural Russia right now. He's a Nationalist Traditionalist, no longer trying to keep up with the west. Now he's trying to re-write history.

[–] teslekova@sh.itjust.works 3 points 16 hours ago (1 children)

So, something like the war plans the US has to invade Canada? The ones they wargamed out in the 60s?

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Do you put that on the same level as China wanting to reunify with Taiwan, and running sorties through their airspace regularly? Does America have a 9-dash line? Do you think they're both being as serious or long term about what you've suggested?

Does the US have a Hong Kong they were surpressing a decade or so ago? Ferguson maybe? It's not quite the same I don't think.

[–] tootoughtoremember@lemmy.world 1 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

For over thirty years it was the stated goal of North Korea to create a pan-national federation (one country, two systems) with South Korea. It was a plan, one they'd often posture aggressively in support of, particularly in the direction of South Korea's American allies, but I wouldn't call it a modern example of colonization.

[–] DarkCloud@lemmy.world 1 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

There are also other examples of successful reunifications. North and South Vietnam, East/West Germany. So the point of contention is how (and whether) China goes through with it. Yes, I agree.

They have a demographic shift going on, so the bulk of their fighting aged men will age out between 2035 and 2050...

.... they've built bridging barges with roads attached to get over Taiwan's difficult beach heads. So there's signs of preparation.

The US has done modelling saying the US can't stop China taking Taiwan, and reunification has been a goal for China for over 50 years now. Seem serious enough? I guess we'll wait and see what Xi says.