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Age checks could turn internet into an ID checkpoint and would kill anonymity, Proton CEO says (proton.me)

submitted 4 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by Deep@mander.xyz to c/technology@lemmy.world

225 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Online threats to children are real, but the headlong pursuit of age verification that we’re seeing around the world is unacceptable in its approach and far too broad in scope — and we simply can’t afford to get this wrong.

To be clear, parents’ concerns are valid and sincere. Few people would argue that kids should have unfettered access to adult material, to self-harm how-tos, to social media platforms that manipulate them and expose them to abuse.

But it’s the very depth of those worries that is being cynically exploited. Age verification as is currently being proposed in country after country would mean the death of anonymity online.

And we know exactly who stands to gain: The same tech giants who built the privacy nightmare that the internet is today.

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[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

100% disagree.

Overall, you seem to have a strong sense of faith that your country and the EU as a whole will be this unshakable pillar in the face of all of everything happening all around. Even if you trust your government or the EU, you would also have to trust the numerous platforms, service providers, data brokers, and digital security apparatus to all work honestly and in conjunction toward your (and everyone else’s) best interests.

No, I don't have to trust the data brokers because of encryption. You're still mixing anonymity with privacy. Signal doesn't have my conversations. Even if I'm forced to verify my age on Signal they will not get any more data from me than they already have. They already have my phone number. Age verification doesn't mean I now have to trust Signal more. Same with all the other platforms. I don't use gmail, I don't use stock Android and I don't log in when browsing youtube. They will not get more data from me because of age verification. YT already required age checks for some videos. I just don't watch those. The only difference is publishing content online. You can post content on facebook, instagram and twitter anonymously now. You won't be able to. I'm not anonymous on lemmy already, I'm fine with that. I think about what I post and I think everyone should do the same.

As far as all the various fascists and other bad actors you’re (rightly) concerned about, that is a good point to talk about. One thing to emphasize is that the major platforms hosting them have historically had a legal obligation to moderate their content, which they have been grossly negligent at.

I don't want the platforms to moderate content. Censorship is bad. We constantly see stories about platform removing or demonetizing content that's completely legal but uncomfortable for the corporations. I would rather see independent justice system take care of that like they do with press. In a fair system courts can punish someone for publishing illegal content but they can't stop them from publishing it. I know it's not really possible right now (it would overload the courts) but we should start with some mix and limit content moderation over time. Anything that's legal should be permitted. People that publish illegal content should be responsible for it. Removing anonymity will make that possible. Even lemmy had issue with child pornography published here by some assholes. Removing anonymity would make hosting server easier and safer. All we would lose is toxic assholes and calls to assassinate people.

[–] Disillusionist@piefed.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)

No, I don't have to trust the data brokers because of encryption.

Encryption alone actually isn't preventing as much data collection as you indicate. I would suggest looking that up.

You're also pretty confident in the specifics of your own situation, like not using gmail, etc. While I would caution you that you may not be as secure as you appear to believe, I'd say that you do demonstrate that you have some awareness that there is a problem with the nature of how data can be handled in such contexts. That's definitely a good start. But I also think it would be good to consider that even if what you're personally doing is as effective as you believe, not everyone is going to take the measures you're taking. Even if it makes you more secure, what about everyone else? How do they fit in?

100% disagree.

You seem to be shutting out a lot of the info you're being given. That's understandable, strong opinions are often difficult to see past. But I'm noticing that we're not meeting on some central facts, we're kind of having two different conversations.

There is a lot to talk about here, a lot to address in what you've said. Productive discussion often requires being able to meet on facts, however.

[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 1 points 2 days ago

You seem to be shutting out a lot of the info you’re being given. That’s understandable, strong opinions are often difficult to see past. But I’m noticing that we’re not meeting on some central facts, we’re kind of having two different conversations.

I actually think we're talking about the same thing and you're trying to make good points. And I think I'm addressing what you're saying on factual level. I just disagree with you.

Even if it makes you more secure, what about everyone else? How do they fit in?

Majority of people don't care about their anonymity. They link credit cards to their google, apple and facebook accounts. They post personally identifiable data and pictures all the time. Google requires phone numbers to create account now so using Gmail and being anonymous are mutually exclusive. A lot of people arguing for anonymity only care about one single aspect of it: being able to comment online without consequences.

And I don't think what I'm doing is 100% effective. Vast majority of people on the internet are not 100% anonymous. For example you have AI powered tools now that are very good at de-anonymizing users based just on their writing style. I'm sure AI can take my comments from lemmy and link them to my old post on Reddit. You know what's my solution for this? I never called for the assassination of anyone on Reddit. That's the most effective thing you can do: don't act like you're anonymous even when you think you are. At the same time I'm keeping my data as private as possible by avoiding corporate platforms as much as I can, using VPN and blocking ads and trackers. Anonymity != privacy.