MeanwhileOnGrad

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Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-hannibal-protocol-during-oct-7-fighting-report/
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israeli-army-investigation-suggests-many-7-october-casualties-caused-friendly-fire
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/06/israeli-authorities-palestinian-armed-groups-are-responsible-war-crimes?sub-site=HRC
Yep, nothing to see here, just admissions by their own state media and by international organisations stating that nothing happened at all
This only collaborates (if the single allegation is true, and that's all we have to work with here) that it was an isolated incident, and soldiers may have been killed by the supposed order. But again, there is no evidence; you can only rely on conspiracy, at which point you're moving from reality into superstition, and I can't prove that negative. Likewise, you can't confirm whether it's true.
Paywall
So I read through the report, which backs up everything I was saying.
Your claim is "There’s also the fact that a considerable number of the deaths on october 7th were caused by the Hannibal protocol" -- The Independent International Commission of Inquiry doesn't support this. The discussion around the Hannibal Directive is typically conspiracy directed that the "considerable number of the deaths on october 7th" were caused by Israeli forces targeting civilians, which is false. There were a few cases of the Hannibal Directive being ordered, so we'll go over them:
So this was when Hamas militants attacked the Music Festival. Some of the civilians fled to a nearby tank, and inside were dead IDF soldiers. The civilians then armed themselves with a machine gun and helmets, but didn't leave the inside of the tank while other civilians hid behind it, some of them making trenches to hide beneath the tank.
No confirmed civilian deaths by Hannibal Directive.
No confirmed civilian deaths by Hannibal Directive.
Here's some evidence of the Hannibal Directive being used, but only on military targets, not civilians, and none ordered by command. Again, though, there's no evidence of this particular incident causing any deaths.
So again, no confirmed civilian deaths by Hannibal Directive.
The other 13 came from a stand-off between Israeli forces and Hamas terrorists. Approximately 40 Hamas militants and members of other armed groups broke into an Israeli house, killing one civilian and wounding the other. They then started to bring all the abducted civilians into this house to act as hostages. 15 were in the house by the time the Israeli forces arrived, with the other hostages pinned in the courtyard and around the property, who were used as human shields by exposed militants. The Hamas commander surrendered to the Israeli forces, but the other 40 militants did not. A small firefight broke out. The Hamas commander was allowed to use a loudspeaker to tell his militant forces to surrender, but they did not. The fighting continued, with civilians used as human shields and pinned in different areas around the property, while 15 were in the house. The fighting escalated with RPG fire and other explosives targeting the Israeli forces. After a few hours, the Israeli General gave the order to fire tank shells around the house, two were used as warning shots around the property, and then the final shot was targeting the house's roof.
So to conclude: There is no evidence of the Hannibal Directive at the command-level, or that it was reinstated. There is only evidence that one tank crew applied the Hannibal Directive to themselves. There is documented friendly fire and crossfire, but no evidence that this accounts for a significant proportion of total deaths.
Now a question for you: Are Hamas responsible for a significant proportion of deaths during the attack?
Well would you look at that, you managed to take the one thing in my first statement that you could dispute and turn it into a set of paragraphs while completely ignoring the rest of my point.
You even managed to turn me saying "A considerable number of deaths" into the strawman of "a significant portion of total deaths"
Which is A: not what I said
B: Completely missing the point
C: Failing to do any research outside of the VERY softball sources I sent you, because I knew you wouldn't react well to being told that you've been lied to about these "dangerous hamas terrorists" and how israel is entirely justified in genociding them because they attacked back against the settlers.
I'd like for you to gain a little empathy, instead of trying to make some form of "both sides bad" argument that only justifies israel in continuing to break any form of 'ceasefire' by letting them point at a building and say "hamas is there" before artillery or airstrikes get called in.
You know. Like they did with the hospitals. And the universities.
You said: "There’s also the fact that a considerable number of the deaths on october 7th were caused by the Hannibal protocol"
That's false. When I pointed out that it was false, you linked sources that also said it was false. So I went into detail and explained it to you. Consider how far you are in campist rhetroic that you take me calling you out for a falsehood, the same as me taking the side of Zionism, which I am not. I care purely for facts and will call out falsehoods regardless of which pretend side spouts them.
Likewise, you are conflating Hamas with the innocent Palestinian civilian populace. I've linked it elsewhere in this thread, but Hamas also mistreats and punishes Palestinians who oppose them.
Both Israel and Hamas can be bad for different reasons, you don't need to support one or the other. You can condemn both. I condemn both the IDF, the Israeli Government and Hamas/militants. Why can't you?