this post was submitted on 08 Feb 2026
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I'm not sure how the presence of ideas promoted by Jung or the concept of guided self-reflection are at all mutually exclusive with religious beliefs.
I don't see how they're wedded.
They're not, they're distinct concepts that are commonly found expressed in religious practices but are not in of themselves spiritual. I'm sorry I'm genuinely confused as to what you're saying.
Then you just answered your own question. You really are confused, it's okay to admit it.
So your assertion is that I should understand that it's not a religious practice because... it shares traits with many religious and nonreligious practices.
I'm sorry, I don't think in this case that the confusion is due to a fault on my part :/
You literally said:
You acknowledged that Jungian archetypes are distinct concepts from religious practices and not in themselves spiritual. And yet you don't understand why some people are saying "Tarot isn't necessarily religious or spiritual"?
You say "it shares traits with many religious a nonreligious practices" as if you think that's definitively concludes that it's inherently religious.
And yet you openly avow satanism and write yourself a pass because it's "secular" and you completely ignore the fact that by your same argument against tarot, i.e. that it "shares traits with many religious and nonreligious practices," you would have to consider your own beliefs and practices under the same umbrella.
The confusion is definitely due to a fault on your part. No one else here is confused.
At no point did I do that.
You've incorrectly assumed my motivations and are allowing those assumptions to color this interaction. You're treating this as though I have made the assertion that Tarot is always a religious practice, something I haven't done. Tarot reading is a religious practice as much as confession is - it can be absolutely be performed without the spiritual aspects (in this case that would be tarot not used as a prophecy but a form of self-reflective meditation). This is something I have personal doubts as to the strict accuracy of but which I would never presume to use to dismiss someone else's claims about using it in that manner; Hence why I asked the original poster about why they consider it not a religious practice.
This is wholly in line with my own nominal belief in satanism (in my case something that is almost entirely a political/social statement and a means of community organization (i.e. not adherence to a philosophy), but that's not supremely relevant). I do, I suspect, consider it under the same broad umbrella (although the lack of spiritual adherence in satanism is far more the norm than it is with Tarot - in most branches it's even explict. I strongly suspect that the secular use of tarot is in the extreme minority comparably) - but the aspect of the conversation you've weighed in on has had no attempt at explanation, just random assertions and dismissal.
You have waded in to attack, dismiss and arguably insult me - based off your own misunderstanding of what I'm trying to achieve. The confusion is not mine, and honestly the fault here isn't mine either. You're being a jerk.
Then what point are you even trying to make? What is it you're "trying to achieve"? Why even leave your original comment
The only person wading into attack on this thread is you, and although multiple people have pointed that out you've consistently relied on DARVO to accuse them of attacking you, when you're the one attacking OP and the concept of Tarot in the first place.
You're calling it a religious practice based on your own set of definitions, while simultaneously carving out exceptions for your own quasi-religious practice. This indicates that you're clearly either incapable or unwilling to hear the perspectives of others and what their interests mean to them, and you have this exclusivist mentality where only you can be right.
You're a fucking narcissist. Anton LaVey would be proud 👏👏
I haven't attacked tarot or OP, what?? Calling it a religious practice isn't an attack, and my initial comment was criticizing the behavior of someone using tarot to avoid being direct with their friend, it in no way criticized tarot directly.
I'm sorry, can you provide a single example of someone else doing that? At this point the only person I've seen even accuse me of attacking anyone is you.
The entire humor of the post is about OP's directness, so I don't know what you're on about.
And since you're still intent on ignoring the realities of the conversation in this thread, and twisting everything to make yourself sound like a victim, I'm done with you.
So what, you were just trying to gaslight me with other people accusing me of DARVO...?
I welcome you being done with this conversation, but jeeze, trying to tell me what my motivations are instead of listening to me is a pretty shitty thing to do. Not sure how else to describe it besides "you misinterpreted an attacked me".
Accusations in a mirror, much? Are you doing this on purpose or do you have zero self-awareness?
Not really. A good portion of DARVO requries a rejection of evidence - I've asked you for evidence and you've refused to give it to me. You've also blatantly lied about other interactions in this thread, and when I accused you of being a jerk, you started attacking me: calling me a narcissist, implying I should delete my comment, saying I lack self awareness, etc. Even your initial interaction was attempting to weaponize my admission of confusion as somehow a negative thing - shaming me for admitting I was confused by saying it's okay for me to admit I'm confused, which is the thing I had just done.
You've come into this combative and accusatory, and are continuing to exemplify the behavior you are accusing me of.
You're even asserting that by calling Tarot religious or spirtual - and I hate to point this out, but this is in the context of a meme posted to an occult community so it's not exactly unfair of me to make the association - I'm somehow attacking it and the person that posted it, instead of criticizing the implied behavior of the hypothetical person in the meme. And to be clear, I've never made the claim that Tarot is inherently spiritual - elsewhere in this thread I've made that explicitly clear, as well as in my replies to you. That it is a religious or spiritual practice does not make the claim that it is always a religious practice.
I haven't refused to give you evidence. It's all over the thread, and you refuse to see it. Just because you're being dishonest by denying other interactions that happened in this thread that everyone else can clearly see, doesn't make me a liar for pointing them out. Get over your victim complex.
I thought you said you were done with this conversation? Apparently that wasn't true, but I am.
I made a specific request for you to support your claim, which you didn't do. There are no other accusations in this thread about me attacking them, DARVO or not, for me or anyone else to clearly see - you're lying, and you're once again attempting to gaslight me about that fact.
Also I've never said I was done with this conversation, I said I welcome you being done with it. You were the one that was apparently wrong, but you're trying to tell me that was actually me, lying. That's gaslighting, dude. Again.
You're explicitly engaging in the behavior you're accusing me of, and refuse to engage with me when I explain how you've misunderstood me, choosing instead to repeatedly attack my character and lie to me instead of engage in good faith. It's disgusting you're still trying this.
Literally all these other commenters are telling you that you're wrong
https://sopuli.xyz/comment/21780989
https://sopuli.xyz/comment/21775878
https://sopuli.xyz/comment/21778431
https://sopuli.xyz/comment/21779673
And you refuse to admit it. I didn't bother with it earlier because I saw no point in humoring someone like you. Stop acting like everyone on this thread can't see all the other comments.
Sealioning
I learned a new word! Nice.
Asking for evidence when you're accused of something incredibly heinous isn't sealioning, especially when they claim it's obvious - it's basic defensiveness. I'm asking them to back up their accusations, and they've responded with a list of comments that have nothing to do with their accusations. They're aggressively gaslighting me, not just about that, and although you were hostile to me initially (and I sincerely do not know why, I appreciated your comment but was genuinely confused by it and if I offended I do apologize) I am begging you to look at what they're doing.
Stop. That isn't evidence. None of those are accusing me of attacking someone while engaging in DARVO-like behavior, which is the claim you made. I haven't really made a claim for them to say is wrong other than that the person in the meme should be more direct with their friend, a claim you have never engaged with. That I have been misinterpreted about the spirituality of tarot is the bulk of my explanations elsewhere - something you again choose to ignore. You're again blatantly trying to gaslight me.
You're literally doing DARVO while you do this. You have never attempted to engage with me on this, nor my criticism of your behavior in my previous replies here, you've simply chosen to attack, attempt to gaslight and accuse me of being the aggressor.
Look at your comments. I accused you of being a jerk and attacking me, and you immediately:
It's almost beat for beat.
"I'm not doing Darvo, you're doing Darvo!"
Classic. I'll just leave it up to the peanut gallery to judge.
And again you ignore that you started this and attempt to turn it around on me.
I started this? The top level comment is yours, and you were already arguing with people who called you out by the time I chimed in...
You started the accusations of narcissim, including inventing that other people were accusing me of attacking them by engaging in DARVO-like behavior then attempting to gaslight me about it. When you weighed in on this conversation it was to mock me for expressing confusion - that was a discussion not an argument, if a rather rude one - in a conversation where I had sincerely asked for someone else's perspective and was given a perfunctory lack of explanation. Elsewhere in this thread are very minor arguments, sure - all of them based on a misunderstanding, or (after you joined) one person posting a rude meme.
You have refused to engage with what I've said from the beginning, and you've devolved to even trying to gaslight me about being the one who said they were done with this conversation - which, I note, you continue not to be done with.
Sigh. That's not how you use that, but I'll point out you're trying to gaslight me yet again with it by implying that I was somehow sealioning in that comment or this thread.
Sealioning means to ignore all evidence while repeatedly demanding evidence in a badgering sort of way, does it not?
Not quite:
In this case I've only asked you for evidence of one claim once, and then referred back to you not providing it. I'm not after more evidence, and I'm not attempting to badger you into giving me evidence, I'm just trying to get you to stop gaslighting me. Although I'll happily concede that probably wasn't you trying to gaslight me just now since sealioning is kinda a weird one (and you're unfamiliar with it). My bad there.
I'm not even gaslighting you. You were giving OP shit for a post that was clearly meant to be humorous, and you were making blanket statements about tarot which it looks like you've walked back in other conversations on this thread.
Where I initially commented, someone had told you that some people use tarot as a psychological tool similar to jungian archetypes and shadow work, and distinguished from religion. You said that you recognize them as distinct concepts, and then doubled down on saying tarot is a religious/spiritual practice.
I pointed out the apparent self-contradiction, although at this point it looks more like it was one step in the process of realizing that tarot has broader use than being limited to just spiritual or religious contexts. But I haven't seen you say anywhere that you've learned something and changed your opinion, and now recognize the secular usage if tarot. It seems like you've instead pretended that that was your opinion from the start, as if your initial insistence that it's religious was just a fluke.
That's because I haven't changed my opinion - I never thought tarot was a singularly religious act in the first place which I made clear at least an hour before you joined in to accuse me of doing exactly that : https://lemmy.world/comment/22028428 . I've never made any claim even presenting it like that besides describing Tarot as religious - which is not wrong, many people do consider Tarot as an aspect of their religion, and being this is an occult community it's not unfair for me to have chosen to primarily characterize it as such. And setting that aside, the content of my initial message would not have changed had I said:
This is why I've repeatedly said you've misunderstood me - I have never claimed that I was unaware of a secular use of Tarot, nor have I attacked tarot, nor have I asserted that tarot is singularly religious. I do not know how you arrived at that conclusion, even. I asked for someone's opinion on why they don't consider it religious, and I sincerely wanted to know what they thought. What I got was:
Which isn't an explanation about why they don't consider it a religious act, it's a set of concepts that are present in a whole host of things. I then said I was confused, because I was, since they didn't even claim that was why they don't consider Tarot religious, they just asserted it and then told me I was taking it too seriously. And you've done nothing but attack me for that confusion, now even saying that was me "doubling down on tarot as a religious/spiritual practice" which, no, it wasn't.
You jumped in with your own assumptions about what I was saying and started attacking me. And yes, you have openly been gaslighting me: Again, I never said I was done with this conversation, I never attacked Tarot, I was never accused by anyone else of attacking other people using DARVO techniques (or otherwise?), your sources do not show that happening and I've never claimed that Tarot is a solely religious idea. Those are all things you've asserted which are false, and which fit into any of the common definitions of gaslighting.
Even going back to the top level comment, what makes you think OP was trying to convince their friend to stay in a shitty relationship? It clearly says "Dump him."
Earlier I was getting pretty annoyed with you, but now I'm starting to see that you might be on the spectrum. It seems you are/were genuinely confused, so I take back what I said about you being a narcissist and using DARVO. You're probably not doing it on purpose.
I'm not here to torment you, but you need to get over this victim complex that you have. You've clearly blown this whole thing beyond proportion by taking the post too seriously from the start, and when people tried to point out the error of your perception you got really defensive. You don't seem to understand, and I'm not gonna try to explain it to you anymore. Just take a few deep breaths and try to have a nice day
Yes I'm on the spectrum, and I'm sorry but no:
Your accusations have been stressful enough I threw up. You've done nothing but spend hours bullying, insulting and in your words tormenting me over an assumption you made I can prove was wrong. You have not taken back what you said, the comments where you accuse me of said heinous shit, where you gaslight me, where you insult me; they're all still right there. You've haven't even apologized for doing this to me.
I explained my position to a large number of people, many of whom insulted me on the basis of a misinterpretation, which is a reasonable thing to do when one is being insulted and misinterpreted. You thought someone was doing something wrong, and because of that it justified your being unbelievably horrible to someone else. At any point you could have stopped and considered what I was saying with a shred of decency, but you didn't.
I was literally a victim - at your hands, and of your reflexive cruelty. You don't get to walk away from this accusing me of a victim complex and feeling like you didn't do anything wrong, that's victim blaming. And now you've buried your non-apology 27 comments deep where nobody will see it, so you don't have to admit that you did an incredibly shitty thing.
(and as a final note, who in the hell thinks that the person posting a meme is the person that created the meme? Lemmy barely has OC, I should know, and it's fucking awful you're trying to spin this as you defending OP to justify how horrible you've been to me)
I didn't mean to stress you out that bad, but I wasn't "going on the attack" like you characterize me as. You were overreacting from the start, and things escalated from there. If I had known you weren't trying to be a jerk then I wouldn't have been so harsh.
If that many people misunderstand or "misinterpret" what you're trying to say, then maybe it's an opportunity to do some self-reflection and try to understand what they're saying. Because the way you initially came off, did not align with what you later explained was your initial intent.
If I had realized sooner that you were on the spectrum, I wouldn't have argued as much because I would have seen that it was primarily a miscommunication. I thought you were being a jerk, so I was dishing it back to you. I didn't realize until later that your internal logic made sense to you in a way that didn't quite come across as clearly as it probably seemed to you.
I understand how it's frustrating to try to communicate something that makes sense to you and have it not be understood by pretty much anybody. I'm all too familiar with that pattern in my own life, which is why people often ask me if I'm on the spectrum. I think I am, but I don't have a diagnosis.
Anyway, it's been a painful process, and I'm still not well-adjusted, but one thing I've heard consistently from people is that I'm still responsible for how I come across to other people, even if how I come across is consistently different from the way that I intend, and even though I find it near impossible to comprehend the kinds of social norms that seem intuitive to most people. I can never predict how I'll come across, so I don't know how that's supposed to be my responsibility, but that's how neurotypicals tend to view things. To me it seems like that's their perception, so it should be their responsibility, but when they all share the same or similar perceptions due to their normative perspective, then suddenly I become the one that's easy to single out and blame for it. And while it's been painful and frustrating to accept, it comes with more inner peace than trying to go against it. Because unfortunately, we live in a neurotypical-dominated society and how neurotypicals decide to perceive us is what defines who we are from their perspective.
I can think of myself however I want, and at the end of the day only I know my own internal life, but if the majority of society decides I'm annoying or abrasive, then I can't stop them from having that opinion, spreading it around, and ostracizing me. So even though I find it impossible to conform to their norms, it's in my interest to do so, simply from a survival standpoint. If I want to have friends, I need to be likeable, and being neurodivergent doesn't change that.
That all being said, if it really affects you that much, to the point where you would throw up from the stress of an argument with a stranger on the internet, then maybe you should take a break from it. Do something that brings you peace.
A volley of accusations doesn't bring peace. That's how things escalate. And while there's relative safety, as these are just words, it can be stressful. I've had arguments with trolls that had me apoplectic before I remembered that it wasn't worth my peace of mind.
If you need an apology, then I'm sorry you threw up. But that comes with the caveat that you can't expect the world to apologize to you every time you're misunderstood. It's harsh, but it typically doesn't happen that way. The only reason I've changed my attitude towards you is because I realized the underlying miscommunication, that you're neurodivergent, and I only understood that because I am too.
So I'm taking responsibility for my part in it now, but you have to realize that you have a responsibility in it too. I was wrong when I thought you were a narcissist, because I misidentified the pattern. Narcissists don't take responsibility for their part, and they misapply rules to others while carving out special exceptions for themselves. But not everyone who does those things is a narcissist, there are other explanations for those patterns, so it was hasty for me to jump to that conclusion. If that's what stressed you out so bad, I'm sorry.
Yes, you did - you regret it now that you realize you were genuinely hurting someone, but you absolutely intended to hurt me and you 100% went on the attack from the outset.
I don't "need" an apology (which that wasn't), nor do I want one from you, nor would I accept it if you'd offered one. I just want you to not do this to someone else in the future. I'm not expecting an apology from other commenters in this thread, either - that's stupid, they didn't do anything wrong, they misinterpreted an ambiguous comment. I got dogpiled for an unclear statement, it happens all the time on here, that's fine, it truly doesn't bother me, I'm actually quite good at navigating society as an autistic person. This interaction wasn't the fault of any other person here but you, and I'm deeply saddened that you're trying to make that the narrative now.
I had hoped you might be better than that.
Your entire comment is talking down to me like I've got no idea what just happened, despite me explaining your behavior to you, encompassing pretty much everything you just laid out in your comment, over the preceding several hours. I apparently knew exactly what you were doing long before you did, and told you what you were doing, and you ignored me because:
I get it, I really do - it's hard to realize we've done something that has no good justification, that's why you're trying to couch this as you have defended the OP, why you're latching onto my being autistic so you can altruistically explain basic concepts to me (again, I have already explained all of this repeatedly to you, you just ignored it because I was wrong on the internet and that meant it was morally justifiable to do so), why you've spent the last several comments attempting to force me to accept some of the blame so you can excuse some of your behavior, and why you're avoiding so hard actually apologizing for being mean to me.
That isn't you taking responsibility, and while I haven't at any point denied my own responsibility for making an unclear comment initially - hence why I explained myself repeatedly (to you especially, which you chose to ignore) - you will only accept your own responsibility with a long series of exceptions and ways to morally weasel out of it.
You don't think you did anything wrong, and if I was the kind of person that threw out terms like "narcissist" I might be doing that right now - but I don't think you are one. I think you just saw an opportunity to be cruel to someone and get away with it. I think you enjoyed yourself. And I think you're going to do this to someone else in the future, because you're not able to accept what you've done. And for that reason, to make sure I'm not the next person you do this to, and to preserve what's left of my peace of mind, you're going to be the first person I've ever blocked on lemmy. Congrats. Have fun getting the last word in.
I know it's dramatic when people say that, but I really hope you understand that you've just been too horrible for me to feel comfortable on lemmy with you here - I've already deleted all my previous OC to make sure you can't see it and use it against me, because you are the kind of person who could justify behavior like that to themselves. You just spent hours proving that.
I hope next time you do this to someone like me, the very worst that happens is they throw up. But maybe, when someone spends hours trying to defend themselves against your repeated, baseless, fucking cruel bullshit, you consider they might be telling the truth when they say you've just misunderstood them.
And now unlike you, I really am done with this.
You're still overreacting. But I'm done trying to convince you of that.
I'm saying you're way too attached to this and it may be worth exploring, in your own time. This is like if someone latched on to your SN and assume you're into the dark arts and Loki is your patron.
I was attempting to explore this by engaging with the person who made the assertion directly when you engaged with me, though. If you don't want to be here, you're welcome to leave? Alternatively I welcome an explanation instead of a fairly rude dismissal.
(Also I am an open satanist - their conclusion would not be incorrect, which is in part why I chose this username)
I get it. Your literal magical practice > anyone else's, real or jest.
Magical practice has very little (or in my case nothing) to do with modern satanism, it's a secular philosophy set in counterpoint to the more damaging mainstream religions. My patron within the organization is named Loki though, he's quite nice.
Although I fail to see how I'm asserting any kind of superiority over another person's beliefs - just their actions in not being honest with their friend.