this post was submitted on 14 Jan 2026
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MeanwhileOnGrad
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The Zionism in question is with regards to what goat is defending (really, they're not defending it outright because it appears they were afraid of getting banned). I made a thread about it separately, https://lemmy.ml/post/41587368?scrollToComments=true
Essentially what goat is saying is that Palestinians are not allowed to resist Israel militarily, only by cultural means. This is particularly heinous because Palestinians have been using peaceful means to resist Israel since the Nakba. That's what BDS is, that's what the 2018 March of Return was. Palestinians have made tons of efforts to peacefully assert their human rights because they generally don't even have much to fight with, anyway. They don't have a state, they don't have modern military capabilities beyond the things they're capable of refurbishing after the IDF drops hardware in Gaza, and they're cut off from their allies by the Israeli blockade around Gaza. What a lot of Zionists don't understand is that the Palestinian Resistance is the last resort of Palestine because they are being exterminated.
A lot of goat's argument centered on claims of sexual violence committed against women during October 7th. This is a false narrative that Hamas ordered mass sexual assault, and Israel never presented serious evidence of this. This is the position of the scholars of this conflict, too, it's generally regarded that there's no evidence that any mass rape took place that day. That's why I was saying this was nothing more than Hasbara (i.e. official Israeli propaganda) and why they got banned so quickly.
Also I think you are assuming a bit much of goat's intentions and meanings. He doesn't deny that Palestine has a right to defend itself. He is saying that Hamas killing civilians is not a legitimate form of self-defense. Much like the IDF killing civilians must be condemned. It is rather goat critiquing Hamas' actions.
Well Goat is specifically saying that Hamas ought to use the internet instead of something, right? I can understand criticizing the murder of civilians during October 7th. However, to this day it's not known how many civilians Hamas killed in their operation. The figure of 1200 dead Israelis has never been broken down into military and civilian casualties. Israel has also admitted there was massive amounts of friendly fire. So even condemning Hamas for "killing innocent civilians" is questionable; after all, how could Hamas actually carry out a military operation against Israel without killing civilians, when Israel has always made strategic use of the combination of the civilian population as settler colonialists, and the military apparatus that can protect them while maintaining a veneer of legality?
The documentary No Other Land did a very good job of showing that latter point, by the way. In Israel the settlers and the military act hand in hand. If you want to do a military operation against them, it's never going to be fully possible to be discriminate, even if it's desirable to have a legitimate resistance movement.
There were at least several hundred civilian casualties. Don't try to play that game. If there were that many soldiers among the dead, they wouldn't have gotten that far. Additionally a huge portion of the dead were at the techno festival and at the kibbutzim.
I don't agree with Israel's actions against Palestinians and them trying to act like many civilian victims were terrorists. You shouldn't drop to that level though. We are better than that. Don't try to justify crimes against humanity, regardless who it is.
That's right, but that's also where the friendly fire took place, according to Asa Winstanley's article that I linked.
Look, all in all it's probably true that Hamas murdered several hundred civilians that day regardless. But I also don't think there's a viable way for a paramilitary group based in Gaza to do an uprising against Israel that doesn't end with several hundred civilians dead, as I explained, because Israel is a settler-colony and the use of settlers as the tip of the spear of the Israeli effort to settle Palestine is a central part of the project.
Moral comparisons between the actions Israel and Palestine take are always apples to oranges. You simply can't equate violence against the oppressed to violence against the oppressor. A future without violence against anyone is what the oppressed are attempting to build by defending themselves against their oppressors, after all, but you can't defend yourself without violence.
If you use violence to defend yourself, you open yourself up for a violent counterattack, which is exactly what happened. That's why violence is bad, because it allows more violence.
I've seen conspiracy theories that the Israeli government knew about the upcoming massacre and allowed it to happen anyway as a method of keeping control and also to dominate Gaza.
No, I said that Palestinians should use social media (which they are—that's good!), enlighten the rest of the world about their conditions, interact more with the rest of the world, and encourage people to come and visit, which is a very liberal approach. Whether or not you dislike liberalism, you have to cater for it as liberalism is the majority. I argued for tourism as that's the only possible way for Palestine to generate income and allow foreigners to experience Palestine, considering how little land they have, and how often Israel moves on said land.
The fact that you immediately consider that Hamas and Palestinians are the same is grossly telling about your honesty and your position in the conflict. Hamas silences and controls Palestinians from speaking or acting out against them. Here's a clip from the BBC, which managed to bypass security, showing a grieving mother curse Hamas over the loss of her son, and the men quickly silence her, putting their hands over her mouth.
There are many other clips and examples of Hamas oppressing dissenting Palestinians, but you won't care for that, so I won't bother.
Your sources are also shit and unconvincing. I personally aim for sources that are non-biased and, in the case of I/P, very high in their factual reporting.
This is what I found on the topic of r*pe on Oct. 7. https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/07/17/questions-and-answers-hamas-led-armed-groups-october-7-2023-assault-israel#_Toc171593941%3A%7E%3Atext=Gender-Based+Violence-%2CWhat+were+the+main+Human+Rights+Watch+findings+regarding+sexual+and+gender-based+violence+on+October+7%3F%2C-The+extent+to
You can say rape here
Thank you for a source.
Read further. Other investigators found at least one survivor of sexual assault and at least three witnesses to gang r*pe.
I am not saying you or goat are right. Sexual assault did happen, but it is uncertain if it was en masse due to the lack of testimony and whether anyone among the dead are victims of SA.
Those who interviewed the witnesses:
There wasn't necessarily 3 separate occasions of gang rpe, there were at least 3 locations where either rpe or gang r*pe occured. Later on they state that it was unclear that any of this sexual violence was planned at all,
My honest assessment here is that it's unclear how much Hamas is culpable for this. I'd encourage you to check out Norm Finkelstein's analysis of this report and others from his interview with Robinson Erhardt. I can fully understand if you want to err on the side of caution and say that this is condemnable in the absence of some evidence that it was only the actions of individual Hamas fighters disobeying orders.
I'm always fascinated by tankies and anyone doubting women who said they were raped. What evidence will convince you if witness and victim testimony, video footage of women being stripped, autopsies, confessions from captured terrorists, and the UN stating that there was rape, will not convince you?