this post was submitted on 10 Dec 2025
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Lefty Memes
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An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
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First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your viewpoint, it's far more constructive than the other user essentially saying "Marxism bad."
The issue I take with your descriptor is that eventually production and distribution do become necessary. States arise due to class relations, and class relations arise due to modes of production. In cooperative-based production and distribution, ie cells producing largely for themselves but also exchanging through mutual aid, eventually class distinctions do rise historically, even if people resist that. We cannot just return to hunter/gatherer lifestyles.
I agree that mutual aid is a great tool, especially in times of struggle and in systems like capitalism where the wealthiest plunder the wealth created by the working classes, but this ultimately is derived from production, which necessitates analysis of the mode of production.
Communism is less about an end goal, and more about a continuous process to create a society that meets the needs of everyone. It isn't about sacrificing until some day a better society can be achieved, it's about building that better society outright and being aware of the social transformations it goes through as production and distribution are collectivized and the state and class wither away.
Oh I absolutely could spend a lot of mental effort trying to explain "marxism bad" (It would actually be Vanguardism bad, marxism ancient) but I just don't care enough. I have no interest in being antagonistic (except maybe for a couple of quips), cause it's not going to change anything.
Production and distribution (henceforth economy) is necessary there isn't a magical grace period where people stop needing food. For any anarchist system to work they need to have an economy. The anarchist systems that exist right now solve this by relying on donations and members having jobs. As more and more anarchist systems start popping up (although this is probably never going to happen) this would transform to a more independent/self-sustaining system. But what that system looks like doesn't really matter, because whatever it is will be determined by the ones who make it.
This is the ultimate difference between anarchism and everything else, and the reason why I think so many people bounce off it. Anarchism requires belief in people. That whatever system they come up with will work and compliment others who will be able to build their own systems: Economic, social or political.
Anarchy is a process of creating social structures that defy oppression, control and manipulation, and believing that these structures will be able to solve the problems they face. It's not just about economy but about the connections people form. When I look at communists I see only economic analysis: Class, Production, Ownership. Concepts which are secondary to the thing that actually matters: eliminating oppression and exploitation, not just economic, but also social and political.
This sounds like utopianism, and i don't know if it's whether you didn't do a thorough job of explaining anarchism or that this is actually what anarchism is.
anarchism, marxism, feminism, egalitarianism, anti-racism. these are all deeply interrelated utopianist movements.
Utopian here meaning unrealistic, not what's ideal
Technically utopianism refers to the practice of imagining a better society and thinking you can implement it through fiat, ie by convincing everyone to agree with you. It's like theorycrafting a society and thinking that you just need to convince everyone it's the way.
Examples include the Owenites and Saint-Simone, both of which tried their own little isolated societies that they tried to get others to copy, but they fizzled and died. Marxism advanced upon this by looking at socialism not as something to create in a vacuum, but as the logical next step in class struggle, ie feudalism gave way to capitalism which gives way to socialism which gives way to communism due to the unfolding of dialectical processes and relationships (in example, the centralization of production into monopoly in capitalism kills competition, increases the proletariat with ratio to capitalists, and paves the way for central planning and collectivization of production and distribution).
Utopianism is unrealistic, but it isn't defined by that.
That's a strict Engelsian application of the term. Maybe i should've used idealistic. Particularly in reference to this portion of their comment:
Also i think it's best if Marxists abandon this framing:
It sounds teleological and gave rise to the many erroneous anarchist critiques we're now dealing with. You can say that the internal contradictions that capitalism present create the possibility for socialism, but that by no means guarantees it
I'd agree that idealistic (vs "idealism") would be more accurate.
As for the bit on historical progression, it was a simplification. Russia was semi-feudal when it became socialist, China and Vietnam were colonized agrarian countries, Cuba was essentially a plantation, etc. Progression in modes of production isn't so much a strict order but instead a natural progression, and moreover the point is that the driving factor behind their development has been class struggle and evolution in technology changing how we live, produce, and distribute.
ah. alright. okay. got it. that's on me. what i was describing would be more eutopian then
No worries👍