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What do chuds think they're saying when they say they have no pronouns? (hexbear.net)

submitted 4 weeks ago by axont@hexbear.net to c/chat@hexbear.net

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I know there's probably no understanding it, but it's keeping me up at night. When prompted with "what are your pronouns?" chuds will often reply with that they have no pronouns. But then if asked if they can be referred to as he/him, they're fine with it. Plus being fine with using me/you/I etc. I've even heard them say they don't consider he/him/she/her to be pronouns.

I mean I kinda know what it is but I'm not gonna ask a chud to confirm. I think it's these things:

Confusion between very typical pronouns such as she/her with neopronouns like xi/xir.
They've literally never been asked for their pronouns before so their minds can't process the question. They only know that pronouns are those things that trans people use, so they have an immediate kneejerk reaction to reject the concept entirely without consideration.
Confusion between the concept of pronouns and gender identity
Misunderstanding of the concept of a pronoun mean something more like "identified pronoun"

I seriously hate these people so much by the way. Obstinant, stubborn transphobia is a fucking plague and I'm very pessimistic about the idea you can simply argue them out of their mindsets. They're completely stuck because they want to be stuck, and they don't even want to know what they're mad about. May Allah have mercy on their eternal souls because I have very little sympathy for them

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[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 29 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

What they actually are saying: "I do not understand grammar, not just of English, but a basic function of essentially all natural language"

What they mean: "I refuse to declare pronouns. My pronouns are he/him, you can tell by looking at me because... come on... it's obvious in my case, so don't pretend like it isn't and I resent people telling me to declare pronouns because I think it is cringe and a threat to my masculinity. Also neopronouns are weird and dumb."

What would be funnier and more wholesome if they meant: "Chud Johnson have no pronouns. Chud think should be specific when speaking. Pronoun create ambiguity by obscuring the object or subject of sentence. Or pronoun add information into sentence that may be incorrect - like gender if gender is not known for certain, but assumed."

[–] axont@hexbear.net 22 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (4 children)

I just looked up if there are any languages that lack pronouns entirely, and there apparently aren't any. It's one of the few universal language features. The closest is that some languages like Japanese, Spanish, and Italian are "pro-drop" which means sentences can be constructed with implied pronouns through things like conjugarion or participles, but don't have to be outright used. Like "yo necisito" (I need) in Spanish can often simply be "necisito" (also I need) depending on context.

For my mental health I'm now gonna assume all anti-pronoun chuds are just silly confused Italians who aren't quite used to English's rigid pronoun necessity.

[–] ALoafOfBread@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Oh sweet. I thought there were some obscure indigenous languages that didn't use em, but wasn't sure. Good to know!

Edit:

looking into it a little more (https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_pronouns), looks like there is a reasonably strong argument that Japanese doesn't use pronouns. Basically, pronouns in japanese are a subclass of nouns and arguably not a distinct part of speech. "School grammar" teaches that they are not distinct.

For instance, watashi (normally translated as "I") really means something more like "an individual". Also second person pronouns are considered rude, but the words used as second person "pronouns" are also just nouns that have over time taken on pronoun-like usage, but don't mean "you". So the pronouns Japanese has are kind of.. not pronouns.. and are ommitted in casual speech anyway (pro-drop)

also, per https://wals.info/chapter/99 - Wichita & Wari' lack any pronouns and Canela-Krahô lack any pronouns in the Object (but allow them for Subjects of transitive and intransitive verbs).

[–] hamid@crazypeople.online 7 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Farsi has pronouns but they are not gendered. Everyone would have the same pronouns.

[–] axont@hexbear.net 4 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Farsi is a really pretty language and I have a piece of Farsi calligraphy at home spelling out my chosen non-binary name and a generic sort of Muslim blessing (I believe it's Barak Allahu fik, may God bless you). I got it from a Shia Imam here back in 2017 when a socialist org I was with was doing protests and stuff against Trump's Muslim ban. It was the first time I had anything written in my new name and I cherish it a lot.

[–] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 7 points 4 weeks ago

Slavic languages also often drop pronouns, when they play the role of subject and can be inferred from grammatical forms of verbs. Polish is especially prone to it.

[–] TrashGoblin@hexbear.net 2 points 4 weeks ago

Lacking pronouns entirely would have been a good feature for Tlhingan Hol (Klingon), since it's supposed to have features that are very rare in Human languages. But in fact, it has a pretty normal set of pronouns, numbered but not gendered. Third-person pronouns also agree with noun-class (sentient/non-sentient/body-part, in Klingon, though unlike for plurals it lumps non-sentient and body part together for pronouns).