The Agora
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Voting History & Results
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Yes
But: this is going against my belief to not create self-reinforcing echo chambers. I truly believe it's better to meet them and challenge their (rather stupid) opinions, but MAGA has just gone too far for me to even bother trying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance?wprov=sfla1
Seems relevant
Indeed...
Yes but no....? The paradox is interesting and I tend to agree with it, but where do we draw the line?
Who draws the line?
If we supress discussion about certain topics, we always risk those topics just diverting underground and keep growing unchecked.
If both sides consider each other the bloody enemy, then there is no improvement in sight for the collective as a whole.
And before some genius chimes in with nazism, racism etc... It should not even need to be mentioned where I stand on that
Personally, I do at fascism
All the users of this instance? We are asked to vote on it.
I think it will grow more if we keep allowing these ideas to spread. A few years ago Nazis were hiding themselves, now they are openly spreading to public spaces and there is less and less push back from moderators and admins because they are afraid to draw the line somewhere.
Indeed, that's why I'm against their ideology, not the persons. If they want to debate and discuss in a civil manner, sure. But we both know these kinds of instances are not meant for civilized debate, but to spread their ideas and recruit new members. They will curate their own echo chambers and use mis information and logical fallacies to sway "undecided" users.
The problem is not that they are allowed to speak, it's that people aren't pushing back, or when they do push back they are equally combative causing both parties to feel like it's person vs person and not society vs the problem. This is extra visible in US politics, with name calling, unregulated news broadcasters and the lack of consequences for outright lies.
It's also a well known and documented phenomenon that suppressing opinions, paradoxically enough, can lead to the strengthening and intensification of those opinions. These opinions didn't spawn with Trump, they just got a orange face to latch on to and amplify with.
On your last point: Sure, if the instance is meant for this only, then we should block it which is why I voted yes. But, we can't accuse them of always curating echo chambers if we block them every time they post something we disagree with. Then we are careless and ignorant at best, and idiots at worst.
Maybe, but I'm not advocating for a complete silencing of these opinions. I'm saying we shouldn't allow these in this space because they will degrade the quality of life here.
No but they were spread by the media that was giving way too much attention to this turd. Had nobody taken him seriously, we wouldn't be here today.
If we didn't allow a prominent public figure to do a Nazi salute, there would be less openly Nazis today on the internet.
A few years ago these were the kind of behavior that got you put in jail. Today it's debated if we allow them at our table...
Blocking a maga instance is not the same as completely blocking any kind of discussion with them. If they register to an open fascist organisation, discussion with them will be hard.
Like another poster below said, they choose not to engage in good faith, they choose not to re evaluate their view point when presented with new information. They chose their echo chambers because it's a safe space for them.
They are welcome to have a real discussion, but unless proven otherwise, a fascist instance will not. They will drag you down to their level and push the Overton window more and more toward authoritarianism.
So you are advocating just that, in this space, where it is possible to do so.
And that’s fine, I just disagree and think that it could potentially lead to even more animosity and diversion if done uncritically. Again: I voted yes time.
He won twice. These opinions were extremely prominent before, inbetween and in his second term, just not shown publicly. People took him seriously because they feel neglected and ignored. It’s a symptom of a highly dysfuntionial society. Trump is just the pimple on a cancer ridden corpse that is american politics.
You and I seem to mostly agree politically, but if people stick their heads in the sand and ostracize those on the other side of the fence, then this shit will keep happening.
I’ll skip your last section as it’s not relevant. We’ve already established that we agree and are discussing the tollerance paradox, not this instance in particular.
I’ll end with a hope that your (I assume you’re american) mid terms go heavily to the left so you can have some normality back. Mamdani winning NY was awesome. One of very few politicians I consider sane/normal these days. We’re rooting for you from across the pond.
Thanks for the discourse and enjoy the weekend.
I spent months on another social media platform doing just that and I learned quite a bit about Maga and none of it was good. They literally had nothing to back up their opinions besides posts and videos by other right wing assholes. Their "research" was entirely within their own echo chamber and outside information, no matter how authoritative, wasn't considered at all. Information they couldn't easily disregard or ignore like quotes directly from congressional reports didn't change their minds either, although it did shut them up.
In addition, 80% of Trump supporters on that site were functionally illiterate. They couldn't spell, capitalize, or use punctuation, nor could they write a complete, coherent sentence. They likely had just as much trouble reading.
I did learn that they really didn't like it when someone was able to easily disprove some of their bullshit in a sentence or two and I was threatened more than once by Maga assholes on that site.
There is no challenging Maga Nazis, Trump said it, they believe it, and that settles it.
What happens when he's gone in 3 years, though...
These people don't vanish with their opinions. They'll fester and grow, waiting for some other dipshit to "guide" them in the future.
It scares me what sort of buttholes we share this world with sometimes. Why does everybody need to have opinions on what everybody else is doing?
You can't debate with people who don't believe in free speech.
This comment adds absolutely nothing to the discourse.
You are welcome to argue against my opinion; I am always open to being wrong and learning something new.
Fascists don't believe in free speech. MAGA is fascist.
There you go.
Edit: Also, upvotes and downvotes on Lemmy quite literally are votes for or against a comments contribution to the discussion. Looks like you're wrong, on multiple fronts.
No, people quite lierally downvote what they disagree with, and that’s fine. You could comment that the earth is round in a flat earth forum and be downvoted. Doesn’t make you wrong. Not that hard to grasp….
We both know that comment was a worthless waste of bandwith. You don’t need to admit it.
Let’s talk more when you’re ready to have a meaningfull exchange. Enjoy your weekend!
Hmm, you're getting very pressed after being challenged for defending fascists. You got something you want to admit to the class?
Yeeeey, finally you got to say what you wanted to all the time! Fascist!!!
Mate, I know your type. You're sad and lonely IRL, so you throw hate around you online to feel something resembling self worth. You repulse people IRL so the safety of echo chambers online makes you feel like like you belong.
You are part of the reason why Trump won, you just don't understand it.
I don't judge you, I pity you.
I also know you are as bad to deal with as the MAGA crowd, so I'm going to block you and move on with my life. Hope you can find some peace and love in your life.
None of what you've said in this comment is true, and in true conservative fashion — every accusation is a confession.