this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2025
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GenZedong

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So it is generally accepted in the mainstream that the US believed in racial supremacy and conducted genocidal conquest against the Amerindian populations / took land from Mexico. This campaign was called “Manifest Destiny” and is generally looked on critically in the US. A lot of mainstream might frame it in a “regrettable light,” and there is a lot of nuanced discussion over if it was a legal genocide, if the disease factor was just an unfortunate tragedy, etc.

Butter at the end of the day, Americans putting a figure like Polk/Roosevelt as the face of the American space program wouldn’t turn our stomachs as much as when Americans put Paperclip-nazi Werner von Brauhn there, for example. (well his dedicated NASA page describes him as a “champion of space exploration” so maybe I’m wrong about that, too)

So now when we compare it with the rhetoric on Lebensraum, we get stark contrast. The mainstream goes gloves off, calling it a major crime, subjecting any dissenters to academic isolation (rightfully), etc. Anything beyond total condemnation is (rightly) unacceptable within the academic community. Of course any celebration of Nazi leaders in other contexts are also swiftly (and correctly) condemned out of fear that pushing such ideas makes the Nazi leaders more palatable to the general public.

So my question is, what is the reason for the change in temperature? Why is Lebensraum appropriately and totally condemned, while Manifest Destiny is “brutal,” but “highly consequential”? Figures like Polk and Roosevelt are not considered universally negative figures like high Nazi officials are.

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[–] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 10 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

And at the end of the day, Americans putting a figure like Polk/Roosevelt as the face of the American space program wouldn’t turn our stomachs as much as when Americans put Paperclip-nazi Werner von Braun there in 1960, for example.

Nobody cared or cares about von Braun either, it's just completely ignored and excused that he was a fascist. Everyone just automatically believes (without even having to be told) that he was a smol bean apolitical scientist, even though that's obviously ridiculous and not even close to true.

And lebensraum mostly matters to liberals in countries directly affected by it, liberals outside of those often care about as little as they care about manifest destiny. The academic differences you point out, I agree with other users that those are just due to racism. One affected europeans and the other didn't.

[–] Cheburashka@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

That’s funny you point that out. I wrote this for a Western academic audience. Of course this isn’t a serious question, MD was far more evil than anything the Nazis did and we already know the Nazis were directly inspired by it.

But I know these liberal historians don’t give a shit they did the von Brauhn thing either so it was meant a subtle jab at them. Ffs NASA still has a page on him, describing him as one of the “most important champions of space exploration.” I’m wondering if they’ll even notice the irony that they don’t care about that either, or at least pretend like they condemn that, along with the rest of their country’s history they clutch their pearls at. I thought it would be fun to paste it here for the entertainment, I knew this community would be on my side at least lmao.

Upvoted :)