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Does Stay down proccing on an enemy standing up prevent Reactive Strike of another character from working on that same enemy? Does Topple Foe from Marshal archetype attempt to Trip an (mastodo.neoliber.al)

submitted 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) by Reshirams_Rad_Slam@mastodo.neoliber.al to c/pathfinder@ttrpg.network

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@pathfinder Does Stay down proccing on an enemy standing up prevent Reactive Strike of another character from working on that same enemy? Does Topple Foe from Marshal archetype attempt to Trip an enemy before or after the Reactive strike if the trigger was a reactive strike for re-prone pseudo-Stay Down purposes?

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[–] ltxrtquq@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Reactions: These actions can be used even when it's not your turn. You only get one reaction per encounter round, and you can use it only when its specific trigger is fulfilled. Often, the trigger is another creature's action.

Stay Down!

Trigger: A prone foe within your reach Stands

You have ways of keeping your foes down. Attempt an Athletics check against the triggering foe’s Fortitude DC. On a success, the action is disrupted, causing the creature to remain prone. On a critical success, the creature also can’t Stand until its next turn.

I think the trigger for Stay Down! should be attempts to stand, especially if you look at other disrupting reactions like Disruptive Stare, Reactive Interference, or Miraculous Intervention. Reactions trigger after the action is fulfilled, so the enemy can't remain prone if they're already standing. So I'd say Stay Down denies anyone else a reactive strike.

Topple Foe would have to trigger after a reactive strike, so that works fine.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 2 days ago (3 children)

should be attempts to stand

I think if we're going to try to correct it, that should be to "takes the Stand action". That's why it's capitalised already, after all, so I think that's what the intent already is. And it fits with what Reactive Strike says, which is "A creature within your reach uses a manipulate action or a move action..."

As both reactions occur in response to someone "using an action", the action is complete whether or not they succeed in the goal they set out to complete by using the action. You both get to act.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It can't be "takes the Stand action", though, because Stand reads "You stand up from being prone." If your reaction prevents the targer from standing up, then they have't actually taken Stand, just attempted to.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 1 day ago

Hmm, maybe we have different views of what that means. To me, an action itself is triggered the moment you declare that's your action. Then its effects play out. Taking an action is an instantaneous thing, but the effects of the action obviously are not.

I think this becomes a lot clearer if we look at a different action, Stride. It says "you move up to your Speed." But this obviously does not instantaneously cause you to move your speed. And yet it's fairly unambiguous that if you take the Stride action, that procs any actions which may trigger on an action with the Move trait immediately, before you get to actually move. I view Stand the same. When you declare you are going to Stand, anything that would trigger on a Stand (or on a Move action) happens. Then you physically get to stand up (unless one of those actions says you don't). Or, in the flavour, those actions occur partway through your attempts to stand up, and interrupt it.

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