this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2025
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@pathfinder Does Stay down proccing on an enemy standing up prevent Reactive Strike of another character from working on that same enemy? Does Topple Foe from Marshal archetype attempt to Trip an enemy before or after the Reactive strike if the trigger was a reactive strike for re-prone pseudo-Stay Down purposes?

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[–] kichae@wanderingadventure.party 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So very often, these types of questions remain fully mired in the realm of naked mechanics, but I find it helpful to imagine what's actually happening in the fiction. The mechanics are there to aid the fiction at the table, after all.

So, what's taking place during Stay Down!? How is the creature keeping the target down?

To me, this has real "stomp" energy, where the user is putting their foot on the target's back, or dropping a knee on them, or something, while yelling at them to stay down. The target tries to get up, but is forced back down to the ground before they can really move -- after all, if the prone creature can get up into a plank position, or up onto their hands and knees, it becomes significantly harder to force them back into a prone position.

That is to say, it happens very early.

Reactive Strike, on the other hand, is about looking for openings to strike, where the target has let their guard slip (or abandoned it altogether). This is why it applies when the target is trying to stand -- it's very hard to defend yourself from a determined attacker when you're transitioning from lying prone to getting into almost any other position.

But when the first creature uses Stay Down, they are functionally putting themselves between the target and anyone else who might want to strike. An ally might not want to take the chance in this situation, particularly since the fiction is not "attacking someone who's being held down", but "attacking at the same time that your ally is getting in the way".

Topple Foe, on the other hand, is entirely about taking advantage of a distracted or staggered target and trying to sweep or tackle them to the ground. And unlike Stay Down! and Reactive Strike in the first example, it doesn't even have the same mechanical trigger as the reaction you're trying to pair it with. This is just a pure tag team shine spot.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I like your idea of looking to the fiction, but I disagree with the outcome in this case if you do. Allies don't generally get in the way of each other, they cooperate. To both be in range of Reactive Strike, you're probably standing on opposite or at least adjacent sides of the same enemy, not one physically behind the other where blocking might make sense.

Your attempt to knock them back down shouldn't stop your ally attacking them as they try to stand.

[–] Kichae@lemmy.ca 2 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

The thing is, preventing someone from getting up - especially someone with any amount of combaat training - involves a lot more than just standing next to them. You have to get your weight on top of them, and then usually attack or manipulate one of the limbs.

That is not an act that leaves you out of the way. It kind of means being on top of the target, at least while you're forcing them baack down.

So, the Stay Down reaction kind of needs to be imagined as something that interferes with a strike that can be done without risking an ally.

[–] Zagorath@aussie.zone 1 points 2 weeks ago

But it doesn't require being on top of them for the whole 6 second round. I view it as a brief shove, disrupting their action. Someone else can easily act before or after you. Or, as you described it as a foot stomp, they could act at the same time, on a part of the body that is...not where your foot is.