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this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2023
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To the people shitting on the idea of a default defederation with Meta, how about we deferedate not because it will affect us as posters but because they are evil pieces of shit?
yeah, the difference is pretty stark:
- Mark Zuckerberg
(yes it sounds like satire but that's a real quote)
How on earth did Meta kill XMPP, where is that even from lol. They didn't even have a standalone messaging app until 2011, which is after Google Talk dropped support for XMPP.
Some game-of-telephone misinformation originating from this article - though it has gone from Google killed it (which this article states), to it was a protocol that allowed Facebook and Google to communicate and then got killed, to Facebook killed it.
I don't even agree that Google killed it, because it's simply a messaging protocol, it doesn't "die". Maybe you could try to argue that Google killed Jabber, but I used Jabber back in the early 00s, pretty much nobody else did lol, almost all IM communication was done over MSN Messenger. Google Talk brought XMPP "users" and they left when Google sunsetted Talk in favour of Hangouts. Facebook Messenger used XMPP for a time, so if anything they "revived" it (they didn't, it was never dead), but, like all the other messaging apps, they moved to their own proprietary version to add their own features.
This is what XMPP was actually designed for, the X literally means "eXtensible", whether it's extended open source or into proprietary versions.
I feel like there's a lot of anti-tech misinformation on Lemmy and it's great to be skeptical, but honestly I think we waste a ton of time being easily ragebait'd into the wrong shit.
Discord killed Compuserve!
Video killed the radio star!
You bastards!
my understanding was that while google is the main culprit, facebook and google both played a big part in killing it. but since we're discussing meta/facebook here, and they're not blameless, i focused on that.
but yeah, fuck google too.
I think we should try to do better here and provide actual reasoning to our statements instead of unbridled rage, regardless of the topic, because this isn't valuable content. I work in an adjacent industry and I believe that a lot of what people have said lately about this topic is overly sensationalized and I don't mind discussing it, but "fuck Meta/Google because they're evil" is subjective as hell and gets us nowhere except back to Reddit culture.
This discussion pyramid was a good post from the other day:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b48a0a91-c7a3-4cc5-a117-6deceedde205.png
Your comments are "ad hominem" at best.
Saying distrust is an ad hominem is one of the takes ever, lol. And that's what all of this boils down to, trust. Do we trust Meta with not exploiting all of our data, and turning it against us at the earliest opportunity? Do we trust Meta that they want to contribute to the fediverse, and not just hurt it because it's a competitor?
By the same logic, blocking or banning a person instead of vetting every post and comment of theirs would also be an ad hominem. But at the end of the day, it's just practical. Meta has a long and not so proud history of being extremely anti-consumer, and shoving that track record under the rug, trying to absolve them of responsibility and consequences for their actions, under the thought-terminating cliche of an ad hominem is neither productive nor practical.
Yes, people are mad at Meta, and yes, the distrust means their actions are scrutinized more than they otherwise would be, but that doesn't mean that their actions aren't actually massively anti-consumer, and that they aren't a massive liability. In this particular case, you can make the argument that they had a legal obligation to hand over the data, had they not tried to build a walled garden with no privacy they wouldn't have had the data to hand over to begin with.
(also, unrelated: you can embed images using the
syntax, and you can even add alt text in the brackets to help users with screen readers)I think the simpler answer is more likely to be correct. The Fediverse isn't big enough to really bother Meta, but ActivityPub is a convenient way to seem cool, so they'll partially support it as long as it doesn't cost them all that much. Once the marketing gimmick has run it's course, they'll drop it.
I think the same was true for XMPP. I don't think they planned to kill XMPP and I don't think they plan to kill ActivityPub. But they did kill XMPP, and they'll probably kill ActivityPub by accident as well when they support it just well enough to pull people over.
So I'm not worried about some Meta conspiracy to kill ActivityPub, I'm worried about getting steamrolled on accident for a similar reason that people don't want to share locations of where they took pictures: they don't want the big mass of people coming to destroy something unique.
So my recommendation is to push for making everything E2E encrypted by default, and have every message cryptographically signed by the contributor. If there's something ad companies hate it's privacy, and that's what we should be pursuing. I'm not sure how that works for Lemmy, but surely there's a way for instances to manage who can decrypt messages.
It is literally ad hominem, that is the definition. We aren't discussing whether we can trust Meta or not, we're discussing a specific topic.
It definitely is, but again, we aren't discussing a person or an entity, we're discussing a topic related to that person or entity. This isn't a discussion on whether Meta should be defederated or not, frankly that's simple, just join an instance that defederates with Meta or don't, or build your own! There's a ton of freedom here.
And I'm not saying ad hominem arguments can't be used, but when an argument is entirely made up of ad hominem points while discussing a specific topic it isn't a good argument.
Also, side note, as for trust I definitely don't think we can trust corporate entities, but I also don't think we can entirely trust the Fediverse as it exists already. We know there's been an influx of bot accounts, moderation tools aren't great yet, and every platform attracts bad actors.
Thanks for the tip! Haven't been able to get that working well here, I think I was missing the exclamation mark.
i mean, the root comment of this chain literally says "how about we defederate them because / not because". it's not exactly an unrelated topic.
whether or not it's okay to defederate from someone just because they're evil is a good question though, but i still don't think it's an ad hominem. an ad hominem, in the popular understanding and in the sense presented in your pyramid chart, is a fallacy of devaluing an argument because of the one who said it. it's like i said "i don't believe gravity exists because it's the zuck who said it", not "i don't trust the zuck as a person and therefore don't want to work with him".
i think the argument you present here takes ad hominem to an absurd extreme, where literally any discussion of a person would become an ad hominem. it could technically fit a definition of an ad hominem, and yeah, a lot of arguments are just arguments of definition where we posit that the other person discusses the topic with our own definitions, by which they're obviously wrong. so to avoid that, yeah, under this definition it would be an ad hominem, but under this definition it means little that something is an ad hominem, discussing a person doesn't automatically devalue an argument.
the thing that earned ad hominem its low spot on your pyramid are the incorrect and baseless conclusions inherent in the former definition presented here, not the mere presence of a person in the argument. your latter definition is definitely valid, but it's unconventional and isn't consistent with the pyramid.
I responded directly to the "literally killed XMPP a decade ago" and later the very vague "they're not blameless" arguments, not defederation in general. I don't think I'm taking ad hominem to an absurd extreme, because I never actually set out to discuss generics like "can we trust Meta?", just the specific topic of their blaming in "killing" XMPP.
I also think ad hominem arguments have their place and the reason they're so low on the pyramid is because they should be backed up with actual evidence that works it's way up the pyramid.
E.g. "should we defederate Meta" > "Yes, they aren't trustworthy" > "Why they aren't trustworthy" > maybe "How could they use misuse the fediverse" etc.
It takes longer sure, but the point gets across better and I think if we actually thought like this there would be a lot more solid arguments for why Meta should be defederated instead of just parroting ragebait that we've seen in memes.
in a thread where we're discussing how meta helped religiofascists violate someone's human rights "meta is evil" is a summary, not an ad hominem
That's literally nowhere in this chain of comments.
Fine, their comments are nonsense that aren't based in reality and the Fediverse and it's communities will suffer the fate of every other echo chamber shithole social media if it's moderators don't take action and make a conscious decision to tackle misinformation, regardless of whether or not it fits their personal bias. Better?
That's true. A lot of Reddit culture is cringe as well