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"No, I'm not doing nothing I'm raising awareness!"
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 30 Oct 2024
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it's both
it's a vote thrown away, which benefits trump, if you'd be a kamala supporter
this is so not complicated the mental gymnastics on display could go to the olympics
as for your points
I wouldn't be a Kamala supporter, so it doesn't benefit Trump. Glad we got that resolved.
Objectively false. If a third party candidate got the most votes, then they would win, so it is mathematically possible. I understand the video perfectly.
Even if they accomplished nothing, I'd still rather my money go to them than to the government or either major party, all of which I oppose.
Sorry, you asked "why vote at all if you're not going to vote strategically," so that's the question I was answering.
I'm not benefitting the party I like the least, I am only benefiting the party I vote for.
If you made a list of your top choices for president, from 1-whatever, would kamala be higher than trump, or lower?
Higher.
Then you would indeed be a kamala supporter and you are indeed negatively impacting your better choice with this
Wrong. I wouldn't support Kamala regardless of her being the lesser evil. I would abstain, because neither of them are at all acceptable to me.
that accomplishes nothing but improving the odds of your last choice. It's not like your vote is an endorsement... everyone knows about strategic voting, so, the fact that you're voting strategically makes it obvious that you don't support that person just because you voted for them.
I doesn't improve either candidate's chances at all. And voting is an endorsement, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.
No, it doesn't. Not voting for a candidate neither increases nor decreases their chances. Voting for a candidate is what increases their chances, voting for their opponent is what decreases them.
Nope, it's actually mathematically false, you're the one twisting numbers around. Remove me from existence and Trump and Kamala's chances will be the same, so I'm not increasing or decreasing either's chances.
Definitionally, endorsing a candidate is when you say, "This candidate is the best choice and I intend to vote for them." It doesn't mean, "I agree with everything this candidate says or does." If you vote for a candidate, tell people you vote for them, and encourage others to vote for them, that is definitionally an endorsement.
I'm in my 30's. You're just wrong about everything you said.
Seriously man… how many people are you going to let eat your lunch before you just tap out?
You’re all over this post getting wrecked left and right. Just stop man. It’s getting sad.
False. If you chose not to, the chances remain the same.
Yes, the same, which is WORSE for the candidate you prefer.
No, the same which is the same for the candidate you prefer. The chances only change if you vote for them or for their opponent. It is objectively, mathematically false to say that the chances change when you do nothing, it's not even a coherent statement, doing nothing by definition changes nothing.
and the same is a lower chance for the candidate you prefer than if you had voted for them.
How are you confused by this???
if you vote for kamala
+1 chance for kamala
if you do not vote
+0 chance for kamala
If trump is an option, and you didn't increase the chance for kamala, you have increased the chance for trump
Than if you had voted for them. You didn't say that before. When you don't specify that, the statement is false.
Relative to a baseline of starting nuclear war, I stopped a nuclear war today. That doesn't mean that I actually stopped a nuclear war in an absolute sense, or relative to doing nothing. If I went around telling people I stopped a nuclear war, I'd be lying. In the same way, it's false to say that not voting is "helping" Trump, unless you specify that you mean relative to doing something that hurts Trump.
For example, this is false.
There you go, you just said it yourself. Neither an increase nor a decrease.
how do you not understand that neither an increase or a decrease, when there are two choices, is equivalent to a neutral vote, and therefore you are increasing the odds of the side that you don't want to win, than if you had voted for the side you do want to win.
How is this so complex for you? I am genuinely baffled.
Your logic doesn't make sense. We only get one or the other of them, that is the inevitable outcome of the election. It is going to be either Trump or Harris. You just said Trump is worse than Harris in a previous comment. If you legitimately believe Trump is worse then it is basic harm reduction to vote for the person who is capable of defeating him. Choosing to not vote or to vote third party reduces the chances of Harris winning and increases the chances of Trump winning. Either you actually do want Trump to win and are trolling or your ethics and values are incoherent.
Trump is worse than Harris, and one of them will win the election, that is true. But I don't agree that that means I should vote for Harris. I believe it is necessary to hold politicians to a minimum standard, and that refusing to vote for a candidate that doesn't meet that standard is a means of enforcing it. Even if a third party can't win this election, voting for them still serves to establish a credible threat of defection. This is one of many reasons why the ideology of lesser-evilism is incorrect.
It does neither of those things, actually. It neither increases nor decreases the chances of either candidate winning.
The things you believe do not make sense or map to actual reality.
What do you think voting is doing if its not increasing or decreasing the likelihood of a candidate winning?
If there's only two possible outcomes between three choices, and one of those choices is clearly the worst outcome and another one of them is clearly not a possible outcome, which choice would you make and why?
If a large enough bloc of voters won't vote unless you support a specific policy, then you have more of an incentive to support that policy. Do you dispute this?
There's not a yes or no answer to that question except in a theoretical abstraction. In reality politics is complicated, messy, and frequently dumb. The only real answer is it depends on the policy, the demographics and voting habits of the bloc, the politician and parties involved, and myriad more factors beyond these obvious ones. I dispute that allowing Trump to win by not voting for Harris will accomplish anything useful or positive, no one will be taught the lesson you purport to be teaching if that happens.
Alright, so at least as a theoretical abstraction, it has potential to work. You can argue whether I'm right to try to apply that tactic in this situation, but as a tactic, it is very much logical and coherent.
You haven't actually presented any reason why, given that it works in the abstract, it couldn't work in this situation. All you've said is that it won't work, but unless you can actually support that position there's no reason to think that.
You didn't answer my question, and thinking through your answer should make it clear why applying that tactic is the dumbest choice you can make under the circumstances if you genuinely believe Trump winning is the worse outcome.
Establishing a credible threat of defection in response to unacceptable policy. Building up a party that actually represents my interests.
That question is much too abstract.
A third party winning this election is not realistic, but there are other tactical and ethical reasons for voting for them that have nothing to do with winning, as I said.
That literally benefits Trump. 2+2=5, yeah?
No, it doesn't. It benefits neither.
2+2=5 is what you have to do to explain how voting for a candidate somehow benefits a completely different candidate.
In think you hit the nail on the head for me with this one:
I'm in the same boat. Many of Kamala's policies aren't things I want or agree with. Many of Trump's policies aren't things I want or agree with. I disagree with BOTH of the major candidates so much that it doesn't make sense for me to vote for either of them.
They aren't losing my vote, their platforms are such that neither ever had my vote to begin with. It's not like my vote would have been for Kamala, but since I have a small issue with one of her planks, then I'm throwing a fit and I'm going to vote 3rd party.
Neither major candidate deserves my vote, In fact I think the difference between Kamala and Trump winning is relatively small for the US. Either of them winning will be a nightmare for the US. They're both terrible people, they may lie about different things, and the media favors one or the other more for their own benefit. They're both authoritarian warmongers, who say whatever it takes on the campaign trail to get elected, then stomp all over regular people when they get into power. The major parties are not the same, but they're both fucked.
I also happen to live in a state where one party will get double the other party's votes, and it's been that way for nearly my entire life. MY VOTE FOR PRESIDENT LITERALLY DOESN'T MATTER HERE, EVEN IF I LIKED ONE OF THE MAJOR CANDIDATES.
If other people like Kamala more than Trump, enough to cast their vote for her, then I encourage them to do so. I understand in swing states where individual votes aren't annihilated by a supermajority that people may have to be more strategic in their voting and take the bad with the good.
But personally, I vote for a 3rd party candidate with no chance to win, whose platform I happen to agree with more than any other candidate, and I can live with myself and the eventual outcome.
I definitely agree on getting out of first past the post though.