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Why couldn't we have created Israel in Utah?
(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 29 Oct 2024
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Not disagreeing that the US does a lot of fuckery in the middle east but I think it's ultimately the UK that started the mess.
EDIT: West Texas is pretty empty. Israel can have it all.
That mess is older than even the UK. The Ottoman Empire cobbled together peoples who didn’t have anything to do with each other way earlier.
Random Youtube video that I’m parrotting without double-checking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN4mnVLP0rU
Youtube videos are a disaster in historical accuracy.
The Ottoman empire was stable. They had beef with Armenia. But that only turned into the Armenian genocide after the Turks turned secular.
The empire was not a beacon of wealth but it was nothing like the crackpot the middle east has turned into since British and French colonialism.
They never turned secular while still being Ottoman Empire. It was formally a Caliphate. The Ottoman Sultan called himself Caliph among other things. It had "nations" separated on religious basis inside, with their own governing hierarchy etc.
There was a short era of Tanzimat, which is treated by people ignorant of history as some sort of it turning into a civilized state, but it was still monarchy, and Christians were still slaves. It was, however, enough for Muslims to feel a lot of hate because of even the appearance of some kind of emancipation.
I had to do a double check on my history. What I said is correct but not "technically correct."
The CUP which primarily consisted of The Young Turks was the organisation spearheading the Armenian genocide. They were also the organisation responsible for the Turkish revolution.
The genocide did technically happen under the Ottoman empire, but it was led by the CUP group who overthrew the empire.
Their primary group The Young Turks then conflated into the party of Ataturk which was responsible for secular Turkey.
Turks like that narrative, but the Armenian genocide honestly incorporates Hamidian massacres and many other massacres before.
It is undeniable the Ottoman empire was complicit and participated in the Armenian genocide. However this was never standard practice before the end of the empire. And it was led by groups which took over the empire.
This does not absolve the Ottoman empire of blame for it. They still did do dun it. But there is a clear direct correlation between the rise of the CUP from within its ranks and its sudden urge for race driven genocides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Ottoman_genocides
The late Ottoman genocides is a historiographical theory which sees the concurrent Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian genocides[1][2][3] that occurred during the 1910s–1920s as parts of a single event rather than separate events, which were initiated by the Young Turks
There is a correlation, but massacres of civilian population were nothing unusual for the Ottoman Empire of any time.
The Ottomans were quite permissive of other cultures, you just has to pay higher tax as a non-muslim, but they left you in peace.
After the British conspired to incite uprisings in the Ottomans, that's when they came down hard on their subjects to quell any further uprisings (it didn't work)
No they didn't leave you in peace, just the tax part wasn't optional.
https://www.britannica.com/place/Ottoman-Empire/Classical-Ottoman-society-and-administration
Scroll down to "The purpose of the millet system was..." and let me know what you think
Da fuck is dat.
I knew Britannica was low, but not that low. Holy shit.
(For those who didn't follow the link) The main ethnic conflict problem of the Ottoman Empire was apparently not perpetual small-scale extermination of Christians and Yazidis, but the fact that some Christians still existed in, ya knaw, Eastern Roman, Assyrian and Armenian lands, and to flavor that turd they wrote something about blood libel against Jews - in the Ottoman empire, o-ho-ho.
I still think its fair to blame whoever is responsible for allowing the current Israel to be founded. Just should not have happened.
That was mostly England. The Balfour Declaration kicked it all off, and then post WW1 British Colonialism locked it in, even though the people who founded Israel were actively fighting England to do so.