[Politico] U.S. to include controversial cluster munitions in new Ukraine weapons package (www.politico.com)

submitted 1 year ago by Brunbrun6766@lemmy.world to c/ukraine@sopuli.xyz

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[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 year ago

So what's the exact advantage of a cluster munition in this circumstance?

[-] skillissuer@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

cluster munitions cover way bigger area. this makes a difference in several ways:

you don’t need to haul as many shells to the frontline in the first place, making entire logistics easier
you don’t wear out barrels as much, which makes artillery work for longer time
you cover entire area at once, taking enemy by surprise and denying them time needed to go for cover
submunitions are DPICM, which means that if a vehicle is hit from above by it, it can be penetrated (yes, even tanks) unless covered in ERA or such. in contrast, you need direct hit or almost direct hit of unitary projectile to disable armoured vehicle
it’s not one big boom, it’s lots of small booms, which means that some bomblets will fall into trenches. unitary airburst shells offer similar capability, but these are rather uncommon for some reason

disadvantage is price, but also small size of each bomblet. because of small size and need to manufacture them in vastly higher numbers there are some limitations of fuzing mechanism that make it fail more often than your everyday unitary artillery shell. this is known limitation that lead to withdrawal of cluster munitions in the first place, at least in some western countries, and also reason for development of M30A1 AW for GMLRS. this will be mitigated by humanitarian demining made easier to some degree by painting submuntions bright yellow.

one thing to note. cluster warheads are effective weapons, but have limitations. namely, western doctrine relies on rapid movement, and if you shell enemy positions with cluster artillery, you can’t safely advance before demining takes place, unless you are either advancing in armoured vehicles only or are willing to take these losses. this is the less shiny reason for putting cluster warheads out of production in the western militaries

Ukrainian drone operators are also using single submunitions, presumably from cluster bombs, as drone dropped ammunition (i've seen at least three separate videos of this). these things are well suited for this role and are used in vastly smaller numbers minimizing UXO issues in the future

[-] skillissuer@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

replacements include things like M30A1 AW or airburst unitary artillery (esp M1130 and similar) against soft targets (like soldiers in the open and trucks) and SFW, BONUS and such smart weapons against armor. DPICM does both of these things at once

as usual shortcomings of DPICM can be solved by throwing money at the problem

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 1 year ago

Hey, thanks for writing this.

unitary airburst shells offer similar capability, but these are rather uncommon for some reason

Really? I thought that was the standard type of shell. Do the typical unitary shells detonate on impact with the ground, then?

Ukrainian drone operators are also using single submunitions, presumably from cluster bombs, as drone dropped ammunition (i’ve seen at least three separate videos of this). these things are well suited for this role and are used in vastly smaller numbers minimizing UXO issues in the future

Oh yeah, I hadn't considered that. And seeing as some of these were at end of life anyway it actually makes sense as an alternative to an ordinary infantry grenade.

[-] skillissuer@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Really? I thought that was the standard type of shell. Do the typical unitary shells detonate on impact with the ground, then?

at least judging by most of combat footage i've seen, this is the most common case. consider however that "artillery" is a mix of everything between 60mm mortar and 155mm howitzer, and only some of these have airburst as a standard option. also consider that despite flashy public announcements everyone clears their magazines out of old kit, and this means mostly older type, PD fuzed ammunition. Albania for example sent chinese 81mm mortars, which means it could be from 70s or so, and it's hardly an exception

cluster bomblets for drones make sense, because cluster bomblets are already designed to be dropped at relatively low speed, have fins or ribbon so that they hit target the right way, have appropriate size and weight, are DPICM so are both antitank and generate fragments, it just makes sense

grenades are probably one of the least resource intensive weapons to develop in this situation btw, and really, about everything that drone can lift was already used as drone dropped ammunition. hand grenades of all manufacturers including thermobaric, 30mm VOG-17, 40mm projected grenades, both western and eastern, RPG warheads, 60mm mortars, 81/82mm mortars, DPICM elements, at least few instances of 120mm mortar, and many, many custom made devices including 500ml fanta bottles

[-] Brunbrun6766@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

one launch, wider area, more damage, more dead orcs

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 5 points 1 year ago

It's also more expensive (which I guess is our problem, not the Ukrainian's) and if covering area is the goal normal high explosive shells work pretty well.

I'm pretty sure there's more to say than that. Bigger isn't necessarily better.