“Are we a joke to you?”
this post was submitted on 19 Nov 2025
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Men's Liberation
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Framing the issue as toxic masculinity misses the real problem, which is toxic behavior itself. Anyone can perform harm or manipulation regardless of gender identity, and reducing it to a male issue reinforces the same stereotypes we claim to challenge.
If society truly wants progress, we should stop policing how masculinity looks and start holding all people accountable for toxic actions, not their gender.
I think there may be a misunderstanding, or multiple interpretations, of what 'toxic masculinity' refers to.
In the contexts where I've heard it, the term wasn't being used to say that masculinity is toxic /that it should look a certain way / that this is something that's up to men to change. Rather, it refers to the subset of toxic behaviour that is associated with 'masculinity', as a way of organizing discussion. The term isn't meant to ignore or minimize other types of toxic behaviour, it's there when referring to any patterns or solutions that might be in common for that subset of toxicity.
For example, the term "men's mental health" organizes discussion around mental health challenges that men deal with. It doesn't mean that only men deal with mental health issues, nor does it mean that men's mental health issues are more important to deal with than those of other groups.
If society truly wants progress, we should stop policing how masculinity looks and start holding all people accountable for toxic actions, not their gender.
Isn't the first part exactly what 'toxic masculinity' discussions are about, that rigid and harmful gender expectations harm everyone, regardless of where it comes from (men or otherwise)?
As for the second part, I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. We SHOULD hold everyone accountable for toxic actions.
Attention capture tactics push toxic masculinity a lot more than, toxicity is my point.
But good back and forth.
Boomer here. In the late 70s/early 80s we had nightclubs, with live bands. Drinks were affordable, and that’s where all the young people congregated. It was kind of like a church picnic with alcohol and awesome music. We met each other, face to face. We talked, maybe danced, maybe exchanged numbers. Call me crazy, but online dating sucks. You’re not tall enough? You’re not blonde enough? You don’t make enough money? You don’t have a degree? Women, and men, are basing everything on a picture, and a bio. Just saying…
Is this the Butler sense of the word "performative"? i.e. it is one's actions which define whether one is masculine? Or is this performative as in "for show" -- not legitimate masculinity, but an act.
I think it's the later
In this context, many public commentators argue these men are just rebranding themselves as self-aware, feminist-adjacent and “not like other guys” to seek better dating opportunities.
oh I get why it's called performative. It's a subtle way of emasculating them by saying what they do is performance, something commonly associated with women and femininity. It's a dog whistle to say they aren't real men.
Or to imply that the actions themselves are performative, that is, that they are not acting on genuinely held opinions or beliefs but rather are doing it purely as a courtship ritual. Which in some cases may be the case but as you say, using it as a blanket term really belittles anyone who believes in what they're doing.
Yup, this is the context where I usually hear the term used. That the person is pretending, just to get the date
I think the article did a good job of explaining why this is a problem. It also left off on a positive note:
A positive sign is that, rather than being defensive, many male creators are leaning into the joke and using parody as a way to explore what a more sensitive man might look like.
And perhaps the “performative male” trend holds up a mirror to our own contradictions. We demand authenticity but consume performance; we beg men to change but critique them when they try; we ask for vulnerability yet recoil when it looks too forced.
The “performative male” may look ironic, but he’s also experimenting with what it means to be a man today.
Whether that experiment leads to lasting change or just another online trend remains unclear, but it’s a glimpse of how masculinity is being rewritten, latte by latte.
In my opinion that is the best these men can do. Just owning it in a carefree way while having fun doing so. I think that is really a "Chad" move. It also is really revealing the double standards.
Not really a new phenomenon. I remember kids doing the same thing in the 90's and 00's, but it wasn't named as such.
Harder to write articles titled "Men still trying to attract partners using a variety of techniques" tho
It's a popular term that's being thrown around right now, and the younger men that are a part of that discussion didn't go through it in the 90s and 00s. I've been seeing it a lot in the university-aged spaces. It's complicated further right now by the discussion around stuff like DEI, since that's also being labelled as being "performative"
Still, it IS helpful to show young men that this isn't a new conversation. The article implies that, but it could have mentioned it explicitly
I don't recall there being a phrase to categorically describe men who falsely ascribed "softer" traits to attract women from those times, tho I remember women saying they wanted a more "sensitive" man, and men trying to demonstrate that they were "sensitive" through similar ways.
I do remember sensitive men, either performative or genuine, getting homophobic pejoratives hurled at them, tho. So some things change some things stay the same.
This article feels like it's been stolen from someone who wrote it ironically.
Lol same vibe. Like wiggling eyebrows everywhere. “…is this… problematic…??”
Gen Z took post irony and prolapsed it.