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submitted 1 year ago by markpaskal@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca

Everybody knows that a lie can make it halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on.

And the ongoing turmoil over Canada’s parliament recognizing former SS trooper Yaroslav Hunka highlights one of the most important reasons why.

Something that’s untrue but simple is far more persuasive than a complicated, nuanced truth — a major problem for Western democracies trying to fight disinformation and propaganda by countering it with the truth, and one reason why fact-checking and debunking are only of limited use for doing so.

In the case of Hunka, the mass outrage stems from his enlistment with one of the foreign legions of the Waffen-SS, fighting Soviet forces on Germany’s eastern front. And it’s a demonstration of how when history is complicated, it can be a gift to propagandists who exploit the appeal of simplicity.

This history is complicated because fighting against the USSR at the time didn’t necessarily make you a Nazi, just someone who had an excruciating choice over which of these two terror regimes to resist. However, the idea that foreign volunteers and conscripts were being allocated to the Waffen-SS rather than the Wehrmacht on administrative rather than ideological grounds is a hard sell for audiences conditioned to believe the SS’s primary task was genocide. And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp.

Canada’s enemies have thus latched on to these simple narratives, alongside concerned citizens in Canada itself, with the misstep over Hunka being used by Russia and its backers to attack Ukraine, Canada and each country’s association with the other.

According to Russia’s ambassador in Canada, Hunka’s unit “committed multiple war crimes, including mass murder, against the Russian people, ethnic Russians. This is a proven fact.” But whenever a Russian official calls something a “proven fact,” it should set off alarms. And sure enough, here too the facts were invented out of thin air. Repeated exhaustive investigations — including by not only the Nuremberg trials but also the British, Canadian and even Soviet authorities — led to the conclusion that no war crimes or atrocities had been committed by this particular unit.

But this is just the latest twist in a long-running campaign by the Russian Embassy in Ottawa, dating back even to Soviet times, when the USSR would leverage accusations of Nazi collaboration for political purposes as part of its “active measures” operations.

And given Moscow’s own history of aggression and atrocities during World War II and its aftermath, there’s a special cynicism underlying the Russian accusations. Russia feels comfortable shouting about “Nazis,” real or imaginary, in Ukraine or elsewhere, because unlike Nazi Germany, leaders and soldiers of the Soviet Union were never put on trial for their war crimes. Russia clings to the Nuremberg trials as a benchmark of legitimacy because as a victorious power, it was never subjected to the same reckoning. And yet, both before and after their collaborative effort to carve up eastern Europe between them, the Soviets and the Nazis had so much in common that it’s now illegal to point these similarities out in Russia.

Yet, it’s not just enemies of democracy that are subscribing to the seductively simple. Jewish advocacy groups in Canada have been understandably loud in their condemnation of Hunka’s recognition. But here, too, accusations risk being influenced more by misconception and supposition than history and evidence.

The Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center registered its outrage, noting that Hunka’s unit’s “crimes against humanity during the Holocaust are well-documented” — a statement that doesn’t seem to have any more substance than the accusation by Russia.

In fact, during previous investigations of the same group carried out by a Canadian Commission of Inquiry, Simon Wiesenthal himself was found to have made broad accusations that were found to be “nearly totally useless” and “put the Canadian government to a considerable amount of purposeless work.”

The result of all this is that otherwise intelligent people are now trying to outdo each other in a chorus of evidence-free condemnation.

In Parliament itself, Canadian Conservative MP Melissa Lantsman called Hunka “a monster.” Meanwhile, Poland’s education minister appears to have decided to first seek Hunka’s extradition to Poland, then try to determine whether he has actually committed any crime afterward. And the ostracism is now extending to members of Hunka’s family, born long after any possible crime could have been committed during World War II.

The episode shows that dealing with complex truths is hard but essential. Unfortunately, though, a debunking or fact-checking approach to countering disinformation relies on an audience willing to put in the time and effort to read the accurate version of events, and be interested in discovering it in the first place. This means debunking mainly works for very specific audiences, like government officials, analysts, academics and (some) journalists.

But most of the rest of us, especially when just scrolling through social media, are instead likely to have a superficial and fleeting interest, which means a lengthy exposition of why a given piece of information is wrong will be far less likely to reach us and have an impact.

In the Hunka case, commentary taking a more balanced view of the complex history does exist, but it’s rare, and when it does occur, it is by unfortunate necessity very long — a direct contrast to most propaganda narratives that are successfully spread by Russia and its agents. Sadly, an idea simple enough to fit on a T-shirt is vastly more powerful than a rebuttal that has to start with “well, actually . . .”

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has now issued an apology in his own name over Hunka’s ovation too. However, any further discussion of the error has to be carefully phrased, as any suggestion that Canada is showing contrition for “honoring a Nazi” would acquiesce to the rewriting of history by Russia and its backers, and concede to allegations of Hunka’s guilt that have no basis in evidence.

It’s true that Hunka should never have been invited into Canada’s House of Commons. But that’s not because he himself might be guilty of any crime. Rightly or wrongly, on an issue so toxic, it was inevitable the invitation would provide a golden opportunity for Russian propaganda.

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[-] fiat_lux@kbin.social 76 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I apologise for butting into yet another country instance I am not part of, but no, I'm not letting nazi apologism stand.

He served in the 14th Waffen-SS Grenadier Division, a voluntary unit made up mostly of ethnic Ukrainians under Nazi command.

The division was formed in 1943. Not even all Ukrainians were allowed in it because only the Galicians were 'Aryan-like' enough.

It was formed after all the ghettos inside Lviv, Galicia's main city, and Ternipol, in this old man's home oblast, were built and had been running for years. It was formed after Jews, who were 44% of Ternipol's population, were dragged from their homes to be publicly shamed, beaten and evicted in the pogroms. It was formed after the Final Solution began. It was formed after mass deportations, slave labour, after the ill, elderly or orphaned were shot in the streets of the place he lived. It was formed after the mass graves of all those victims and more were exhumed and their bodies burned in open-air pits.

This man had functional eyes and ears at the very least, because the Nazis did not like people with disabilities, and he knew what he was signing up for because he was living in the middle of it. Every major town surrounding his birthplace had ghettos and were already sending people by train to the death camps. He didn't choose a charitable hypothetical peaceful Ukrainian autonomy, he and 53,000 other people volunteered to fight for the new unit of an army who were very publicly killing and torturing the majority of the people around him.

And, this wasn't about a Ukrainian group allied to the Nazis to achieve long-term independence for Ukrainians. They were voluntary Nazis under direct Nazi control fighting for greater Nazi control in countries outside of Ukraine. This man could have changed allegiance at any point if he had been naive and somehow swindled into committing atrocities for Nazis instead of Ukrainian Independence. Atrocities like the Huta Pieniacka massacre where his division committed 500 murders of civilians by grenading the town. Where, assuming he was with his unit at the time and not in hospital, he murdered civilians too.

He joined at 18, by choice.

According to Hunka, his reason for enlisting was following the call of the Ukrainian Central Committee to fight for the idea of "Unified Ukraine". - his wiki page

If it was about Ukrainian independence, why were they fighting the Yugoslav Partisans and Slovak Partisans in their countries? People who were actually fighting for independence instead of doing it via Nazis.

Do not give Nazis the benefit of the doubt or the ability to hide behind hypothetical post-rationalised stories. This is how Naziism becomes permitted.

[-] TWeaK@lemm.ee 51 points 1 year ago

No, fighting Soviets does not make you a Nazi, joining the Nazis makes you a Nazi.

We can discuss the nuances of "voluntarily" joining a unit of an occupying army, but the fact is he joined, and I've seen about as much evidence of his regret towards that as I have of specific atrocities that he or his unit committed. So, he most definitely is a Nazi, but we don't know whether or not he's done anything particularly evil.

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[-] Taleya@aussie.zone 33 points 1 year ago

The dude was Waffen-SS.

That is not only very much an elective organization, you have to really want it.

The dude was a fucking nazi.

[-] DeathWearsANecktie@lemm.ee 17 points 1 year ago

Ridiculous how some are trying to obfuscate the man's involvement with Nazism. He joined a Nazi organisation, he's a Nazi. Nazis are bad and should not be allowed to escape justice. Call a pig a pig.

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[-] Melkath@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We can talk about how much times have changed.

We can talk about how Germany is no longer an adversary.

We can talk about how Russia is no longer an ally.

Dude is a nazi and got a standing ovation.

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[-] Rocket@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That is not only very much an elective organization, you have to really want it.

In the early days, but as the war dragged on that started to change. Approximately 1/3 of Waffen-SS members were conscripts by 1942. Hunka joined in 1943. As a volunteer, though, so...

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[-] alternative_factor@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

Yup there really isn't any wiggle room here.

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[-] zephyreks@lemmy.ca 30 points 1 year ago

Fighting the Soviets doesn't make you a Nazi, being in the Waffen-SS does. The fact is that Nazi Germany launched a war of annihilation against the Soviet Union and millions of Waffen-SS and Wehrmacht soldiers were involved in war crimes.

What the fuck is this Nazi apologism?

[-] Debeli_Perun@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

I'll just leave this here

[-] TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works 21 points 1 year ago

Wtf is this nazi apologist garbage?

Even if you wanna lean into the "clean hands" dogshit opinion, this man in no way should be applauded by the leaders of any nation.

And frankly, I hope they do extradite him

[-] MindSkipperBro12@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

I got a feeling that this is the “clean hands” myth again, especially when the guy is a part of the SS…

[-] alternative_factor@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

I'm 100% with Ukraine but this article and the whole incident is such a shameful fucking thing. 100% "clean hands" 2.0.

[-] TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

Tbh, the whole SS thing isn't that significant. Pretty much all Nazi on the eastern front were just as likely to be doing war crimes as the SS.

There was no real attempt in compartmentalizing out atrocities to the SS, aspects of the Wehrmacht took part in almost all crimes against of humanity on the eastern front that were later completely attributed to the SS.

The "Clean Wehrmacht" myth began its propagation before the war was even over, with Wehrmacht command all too happy to proclaim they were just too Prussian not to follow orders, and it was really all the crazy SS officers in charge of the war crimes the whole time.

It's true that "Nazism" has spread and warped throughout eastern Europe(including Russia) in a response to the fall of the Soviet Union. Yes, the complexity of this problem is nuanced in a way western media doesn't seem to want to understand...... But what the hell does the modern interpretation of reactionary fascism have to do with a guy who allied with actual Nazi?

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[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There is in no way an equivalence between the USSR and the Nazis. Hunka fought because he thought his ethnicity might come out on top, just like the German SS members. The Soviets fought to stop the Nazis from killing and enslaving them all.

If he personally committed atrocities is important, but even if he somehow avoided it he was working with and for people who openly thought atrocities were cool.

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[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 14 points 1 year ago

Propogandists are abound within the Lemmyverse as well. Beware!

[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Do you know what makes you a Nazi? Holding Nazi beliefs, espousing Nazi ideals, and in general, acting like a Nazi.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 1 year ago

Joining the Waffen-SS in 1943 is also up there.

[-] SwedishFool@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Well for you, me, and most people in the western world: Yes. It's made complicated by the Russian propaganda however, since their very definition is that nazism is simply anti-russia. By their definition everybody against the Russian ideals are nazis, which is also why their propaganda about Ukraine is so effective on home soil. It's mostly grounded in how the 2nd World War was perceived on soviet side by the population in comparison to the west.

Simply put: What we call nazis isn't the the same as what the Russians would call nazis.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure how relevant this is, but yeah "we defeated the Nazis" is the new Russian "national myth", and they're pretty comfortable stripping out any nuance to the Nazis beside the fact they attacked the USSR.

[-] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 year ago

And simple narratives like “everybody in the SS was guilty of war crimes” are more pervasive because they’re much simpler to grasp.

Your whole wall of text seems to be a strawman based on this projection. Canadians obviously don't believe this, or these former SS members would have been strung up by their necks decades ago. However, they should never be honoured, regardless of whether they directly participated in crimes. That membership implies being complicit in those crimes, as they would have sworn allegiance to Hitler, and would have known and understood the Nazi ideology and supported it through their military action.

If a SS fighter doesn't have enough evidence for a conviction, they should simply live out their lives quietly and in shame for being part of something truly evil. If they were fooled in youth, and understood as they grew older, they would abhor any sort of valour or recognition. I'm not going to engage in whataboutism. There are plenty of other examples of people who should do the same thing.

[-] i_ben_fine@lemmy.one 5 points 1 year ago

Better whip out the counter-counter propaganda.

[-] corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

It seems some time spent learning would help understanding the nuance here. But this entire conversation has been godwinned.

[-] grte@lemmy.ca 20 points 1 year ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Hello? Hello? Fucking Godwinned? They were willing participants in a literal genocide perpetrated by Hitler.

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this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
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