this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2026
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Listening to an Iranian official describe his region as "West Asia" got me wondering if the word "Middle East" is on the outs and why. I suspect Middle East is eurocentric for some reason, but West Asia also preserves Europe as a continent, which is Eurocentric in its own way because Europe is not a continent and never was. If we're calling anything West Asia, it should be Spain and Portugal.

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[–] Infrapink@thebrainbin.org 6 points 2 days ago (2 children)

So this ultimately goes back to the ancient Greeks, but really the last days of the Roman Empire.

Ancient Greeks drew a clear distinction between themselves and the Iranians, who were to the east. Hence "the East" was seen in Greece as uncouth, aggressive, and imperialist, in contrast to rational, honourable Greece. The Romans, who also didn't get along with Iran, adopted the Greek idea and spread it around Europe. (And they all looked down on the Arabs, who the Greeks sort of lumped in with the Iranians).

But this separation wasn't particularly a thing for the late ancient or entire medieval worlds; if people were aware of other lands, they mostly didn't divide the world into East and West. No, the concept of a division came right at the start of the early modern era, when the Eastern Roman Empire, who identified with the Greeks as well as the Romans, was conquered by Ottoman Türkiye. Ethnic Greeks found references to the barbaric East in ancient sources and revived the idea of "the East" as evil, in contrast to the civilised "West" (ignoring the fact that the Iranians and Turks were plenty civilised, and the uncivilised Mongols had wrecked the shit of every civilisation they came across). Turks were perceived as bizarre, Satanic foreign invaders; Türkiye was also a highly-centralised multicultural state, while the rest of Europe was a patchwork of non-state peoples held together by custom and oaths. Türkiye was thus also seen as exotic and Other. Early modern Christians also attached these traits to Islam as a whole, as they initially were not really away of other Muslim cultures.

A couple of notes. Ottoman Türkiye spanned Europe and Asia, but was culturally a very European country, especially in the 15th century, when the above events went down. The sultans were more concerned with Rumelia than Anatolia; they thought positively of Europeans while heaoing scorn on Arabs, Armenians, and Kurds; and the Ottoman court was utterly dominated by Christian converts to Islam from the Balkans (which was an official policy). See The Ottomans: Khans, Caesars, Caliphs by Marc David Baer for an extensive exploration of this, and also a sweeping look at all that was glorious and terrible about Ottoman Türkiye. You, the person reading this, should absolutely read that book.

Also, no medieval Europe did not have countries, with the possible exception of the Eastern Roman Empire. Peasants gave part of their labour to a local minor lord, who would swear allegiance to a bigger lord, who swore allegiance to a still higher lord, and so on up to the king, but the king only directly controlled a relatively small area of land. The king had no direct authority over the lands of the lesser nobility, who owned those lands; custom and their respective oaths of allegiance, rather than law, dictated that people obeyed the king, and conversely, the king could only push his subjects around so much before they rebelled. Historian Bret Devereaux talks qutie a bit about how medieval Europe actually worked; there is a series here, comparing A Song of Ice and Fire to real history, and another one here, which uses a playthrough of Crusader Kings III to talk about medieval politics. Again, worth reading, though there is quite a lot.

A point that neither Baer nor Devereaux ever make, but can be inferred by reading both, is that the centralisation of power and increasing power and euthority of kings in central and western Europe was the Turks, with their highly-centralised government and powerful sultan, winning quite often, and so the Christian powers gradually became more Turkish. There were real concerns that Catholicism and nascent Protestantism would be conquered and subsumed by Islam.

But anyway! Early modern European Christians drew a distinction between themselves as the Muslim Turks (though before Süleiman the Magnificent became caliph, the majority of the sultan's subjects were also Christian). Thus, "The West" was Christian, and they identified as the heirs of Greece and Rome. "The East" was Muslim/Turkish (though Baer argues that Türkiye had a far better claim to be the inheritors of Rome and Germany (the "Holy Roman Empire") or Russia (the "Third Rome")). There were real fears that Catholicism and nascent Protestantism would be conquered and subsumed by Islam; at best, they would be made subject to a Muslim autocrat, as had already happened to the Greek Orthodox Church. There was some real complexity and nuance here; Holy Roman Emperor Charles V was so unpopular he was derided as the "baptised Turk" (Süleiman was the unbaptised Turk), and Pope Clement VII declared it would be a positive devel

[–] schipelblorp@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

You got cut off there, unfortunately.

I've been thinking of Türkiye lately because it seem like they want to get into the EU, but the EU apparently is still about Christianity because Canada's getting in first... Turkey's kind of in an odd position, in between world; kinda similar to Australia, realizing it's actually part of Asia, or Swampthing, realizing he is not longer Alec Holland.

Thanks for those audio links; sounds really interesting.

[–] Infrapink@thebrainbin.org 6 points 2 days ago

But on the whole, European Christian countries saw Türkiye as different to themselves. Muslim Turks belonged to "the East", as opposed to European Christians, who belonged to "the West".

Later on, as trade routes expanded and Europeans learned that Asia was rather large and home to multiple Muslim cultures, and even places that didn't worship the god of Moses at all, they divided "the East" into three parts. Türkiye, the original "East", became the Near East. India and China were lumped together as the "Far East". And so Arabia and Iran, situated bewteen the "Near East" and the "Far East", were naturally the "Middle East". Nowadays, of course, "Middle East" mostly means "countries that write with the Arabic script" while "Far East" is rarely used and you don't see "Near East" at all.

Oh, and at some point people quietly agreed that those European countries that went communist were not part of "the West", because to many, "the West" is basically generally good and something to aspire to, which the Second World was not. Because the whole concept of "the West" and "places that aren't the West" is about Othering, making people in "the West" feel superior for being "Western".

And now you know.