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[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (3 children)

That seems a very narrow and binary perspective. There's no room for nuance, it's simply "AI is bad and we won't talk further about it".

[–] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

AI is being forced into EVERYONE'S lives, whether we want it or not, and to make that happen; land and ecosystems are being destroyed, people's lives are being upended, resources are being made more expensive and less obtainable for everyday people, people's creations are being stolen and morphed into this machine that erases any nuance, self-expression, or human connection, while disconnecting people that enjoy art from those that pour their heart and soul into creating it.

AI IS bad, and no that fact is not up for discussion/debate. Every use of AI is detrimental to human expression and connection, while further harming the world/environment we all exist in. We've done enough harm as a species.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (4 children)

But then we have a problem with AI's process, not the underlying technology. What I mean to say is, if I were to train and run my own model in an isolated local computer, using ethically sourced* training material, then would it still be bad? Like, are we mad at the means needed to make the technology work or simply at the technology? Because if it's the former, then we can do something about it. Agriculture is a hell of a technology, but there are very detrimental ways to apply it.

*Let's gloss over what ethically sourced really means for the sake of discussion.

[–] wieson@feddit.org 1 points 1 day ago

Do it then. Start by describing ten thousand images, so your local ai can learn how to recreate them.

Ten thousand isn't nearly enough btw


I've worked and researched with ai and trained a model. I like classificators and CNNs, I don't like chatbots and image generators.

[–] GreenBeard@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

Sure, if you built an AI on your own machine, trained it entirely on public commons and voluntarily obtained data with the active consent, and powered it entirely on solar power and wind turbines, to do jobs without intrinsic value to human development, people would have a lot fewer objections to it. But you didn't. And you won't, because it would take resources that exceed anything you have available to do so. Much like genetic modification, there are motives and methods that potentially have real value, but they don't tend to have significant return on investment and so are simply not done, and what is done ranges from suspect to objectively exploitative. You cannot create an ethical AI in the current environment, if such a thing is even possible.

[–] Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

It may very well be the former; but I don't believe 'ethically trained' and 'useful' is an achievable combination in AI models, particularly within our capitalist world/society.

Even if such a thing was created; it'd be impossible to verify and distinguish among the flood of media produced by those that just don't care about the broader picture and those effected. The detrimental effects of global AI infrastructure has greatly overshadowed the potential for 'ethical' AI implementation; and now we just don't have the means to sort through 'ethical' vs not, leaving no option but to reject it outright.

[–] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You can't train your own though. You can't make your own AI that knows what a cat or Picasso is without it using works that are not yours. You'd never be able to tell it to write you a novel because it wouldn't have any to work with.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

But if I write a novel, am I not also taking into account every novel I've ever read? Can you draw something without first looking at other drawings?

[–] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

AI is not sentient and cannot learn or read. It regurgitates a "best guess" and knows nothing. If you use drawing tools to make shapes in Paint, congratulations! You made art, not the computer. If you write the shittiest fanfic in the world, YOU made it, YOU adapted your experiences into your own work.

AI does not and never will do it. Stop defending it.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

You moved the goal post. I thought the problem was using other things as references for the creation process.

[–] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Why are you fighting so hard to defend AI slop? There was never an issue with anyone using references. The issue is stealing and regurgitating other people's works and destroying the environment in the process. I'm sorry if that is too advanced for you, as I'm not the first to tell you this.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

When the ad hominem attacks start, it's time to drop it. Than you for the civil discussion while it lasted.

[–] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Apologies, I'm trying to do this while also feeding a very fussy newborn.

I'll instead be an adult and say that I don't want to continue this discussion. I have better things to do, and you're getting pedantic about what defines "art". It's a lose-lose situation.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Agree to disagree. Thanks for being civil. Best of luck with your newborn.

[–] lotmo@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

From the perspective of art, explain to me how it can start as good from the get go or a benefit that's not just I can be lazy? It's built on theft of countless artists let alone the overall waste it produces.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Before going into the art part of your comment, in curious, why is being lazy an undesirable thing? What constitutes lazy? At which point does one stop "being lazy" and become "just using the available tools"? Is writing in a computer and then printing it just laziness as opposed to writing it by hand? What if instead of using a pencil I use a raw graphite piece? Is using a pencil lazy? Or is it something else we're criticising here? Are we mad at the lack of creative effort? How effortless can something be before it becomes worthless?

[–] lotmo@lemmy.ca 1 points 7 hours ago

If saying it's "lazy" really hurts you that much then sorry. My point is that, and your example is actually perfect, if I stencil or photoshop 1, 2 maybe 3 into a single art at the least I have put time and effort into it. There's intent behind it and let's say hypothetically I then went around saying hey, look at my effort and what I created initially you can see the inspiration assuming proper credit is given. If I then go and try to sell it or take full credit then EVERYONE knows it's source and can scrutinize it since now money and/or reputation is involved.

Now go to AI all LLM bar none are unethical or at least dubious in nature when it comes to what I described due to its black box like behavior. Now tell me as a layman making the millionth Ghibli "art" it does two things. Normalize and dilute the original and then commodify and create extremely stringent rules on sourcing without AI. Basically like how deepfakes and the likes are, which is definitely another VERY inexcusable and utterly garbage side effect. And for high visibility stuff like Ghibli, at least you know what's up but the silent and even more painful side is the damage done on the smaller scale artists as AI "artists" flood the market without a care to make a quick buck. Collages, Photoshop and the likes exist for those less artistically gifted (I can't draw either btw) that still left a semblance of human effort but even that is now gone.

So no it doesn't matter the materialistic nature (graphite vs digital), it is the human side of it, the intent. If you tell me that that's not what I consider lazy or more kindly, opportunistic and only that then tell me what's been good so far. For every 1 break through in health or astronomy for the greater good, there are 10x or more number of societal issues that crop up due to it as we continue to feel the pain with no solution in sight.

Assuming you actually read and understand what I say and not just not pick words that might feel too blunt to you, tell me about your art part of my comment.

[–] MrQuallzin@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (2 children)

Your question was specific to AI images, not AI in general. There's plenty of nuance to be had with AI, but art is one thing it should never do.

[–] BCsven@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 day ago

This was the same argument when cameras were invented, and artists moved to abstract and impressionist movement since realism in art couldn't compete with photography. Then we had the same with manual graphic artist moving to digital vector software.

AI is not going away. Does it suck ass for artists: yes. Does it allow non artists to convey visual ideas they never could or could afford: also yes.

I hate AI when used like this, I think all AI effort should be human disease gene modeling, or other public benefits. But capitalism says no.

[–] IntriguedIceberg@lemmy.world 0 points 1 day ago

Ok, that makes sense. So what constitutes art? Is any kind of graphical depiction art? Are we banning computers from making drawings? Or just AI? How different is it from using the drawing tools in MS Paint to help me achieve a nice rectangle or a perfect circle? Something I would be unable to do by free hand drawing.