this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2025
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[–] SnoringEarthworm@sh.itjust.works 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (3 children)

Patriotism as a feeling of exclusive love for one's own people, and as a doctrine of the virtue of sacrificing one's tranquillity, one's property, and even one's life, in defence of the weak among them from slaughter and outrage hy their enemies, was the highest idea of the period when each nation considered it feasible and just, to subject to slaughter and outrage the people of other nations for its own advantage.

The way Tolstoy uses the word aligns with the negative, exclusive definition of the word:

The desire to compete sharply with, and perhaps also dominate, other nations; nationalism.

and not the positive sense of the word:

Love of one's country; devotion to the welfare of one's compatriots; passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

That makes sense, because he didn't have access to the word nationalism as a means to distinguish between the two. The word "nationalism" doesn't appear a single time in Patriotism and Government or in Patriotism, or Peace?.

And that makes sense. The word nationalism didn't see common usage until well after he published that piece (in 1900).

We're not "inventing" good patriotism now, because it was already "invented" over the course of the past 100 years.

We now have access to both words, allowing us to distinguish between the positive and negative aspects of that love.

Leo Tolstoy's writing is timeless in a lot of ways, but when we're talking about terms, it's important to take into account what those terms meant when they were used.

[–] fodor@lemmy.zip 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I think he was aware of the kind of linguistic argument you just made. Your positive view inevitability leads to the negative one. You love your country at the expense of others, right? Otherwise you would have been talking about loving the global community. Well, how do you justify supporting your country but not others? Discrimination. That's how. So patriotism leads to nationalism. Not for everyone all the time, but still for real numbers of people, 100% guaranteed to occur.

[–] newaccountwhodis@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Just to expand on your point:

Love of one’s country; devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots; passion which inspires one to serve one’s country.

One of these things is not like the others. And it's the essence of the feeling, sadly. The other stuff is just being a decent person.

[–] peacepath@lemmy.world 6 points 2 days ago

Your graphics make me feel as "nationalism" being a rebranded "patriotism" to maintain the basics of a concept that was fadding away. And for the few I know, both were mostly used as an excuse to make some poeple fight those from the other side of the river, and to make believe in a natural difference between "us" and "them".

I don't understand well why "them" should be excluded of the good aspect you are refering to.

[–] sem@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 days ago

and not the positive sense of the word

I cannot agree. Tolstoy started his writing from the breaking the myth about the "good patriotism".

It is generally said that the real, good patriotism consists in desiring for one's own people or State such real benefits as do not infringe the well-being of other nations.

Talking, recently, to an Englishman about the present war, I said to him that the real cause of the war was not avarice, as is generally said, but patriotism, as is evident from the temper of the whole English society. The Englishman did not agree with me, and said that even were the case so, it resulted from the fact that the patriotism at present inspiring Englishmen is a bad patriotism; but that good patriotism, such as he was imbued with, consists in Englishmen, his compatriots, acting well.

"Then do you wish only Englishmen to act well?" I asked.

"I wish all men to do so," said he; indicating clearly by that reply the characteristic of true benefits,—whether moral, scientific, or even material and practical,—which is that they spread out to all men; and therefore to wish such benefits to anyone, not only is not patriotic, but is the reverse of patriotic.

Even in the definition of the "positive patriotism" you were mentioned there is a paradox.

Love of one’s country; devotion to the welfare of one’s compatriots; passion which inspires one to serve one’s country.

If one wishes the welfare of one's country, the welfare of one’s compatriots... Does they wish the welfare of only one's compatriots? If yes, it is a wish of superiority of one's country, the superiority of one's compatriots over other people. If not, it is not patriotism just by the definition.

There is nothing bad to wish the welfare of people living around you, your neighbors. But it is solidarity, not patriotism. Patriotism is tightly coupled to the concept of the national state (because all the modern states are actually a national states). While Tolstoy did not mention the word nationalism, he mentioned the concept of nations and national states. And he criticized the whole concept.

I would again agreed with Leo, that the concept of nations and national states might look modern in the time of French Revolution (and there were no "nations" before no matter what the today's patriots will try to sell you), but even in the time of his writing the concept was already totally outdated, I'm not even saying about today. And I do not understand how are you going to distinguish the concept of national states and patriotism while all the states are national state. Why not just to use the word "solidarity" instead and leave the "patriotism" in the past era of world wars?