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this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
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No Stupid Questions
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So as long as Event Organisers stay below the average mortality rate, they hold no liability? They are doing fine?
OP: One person died! It's a tragedy!
Turns out that's a better mortality rate than outside the event, not much of a tragedy, more of them would have died if they hadn't went to the event!
Outside the event includes people in their 90s dying of old age in hospitals
Generally the demographic that attends burning man skews younger which is inherently less likely to die
I included a link to the real stats which you didn't check and just with people up to their 40s the mortality rate is high enough that you would expect more people to die during that week...
Heck, let's look at the stats for 2019 so COVID isn't taken in consideration (pdf warning):
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db395-H.pdf
The important table:
Every group starting with the 25-34 y.o. has a mortality rate higher than what has been seen at Burning Man this year, 15-24 is at 49/70k/year so it's pretty much par with the current death rate at the festival, so unless all attendees are 24 or less then they're better off than the general population that didn't attend.
It's a much higher mortality rate than the average event. More people died at this event then most events.
One event with 70k in attendance lasting a whole week with the same people in attendance all week and they can't leave. There aren't many events that can be compared to it and the fact that it takes place during an event doesn't matter for this comparison as we're trying to see how many of these people would have died if the event hadn't taken place at all.
Heck it could be considered good for the organizers, they should have had many deaths by that point considering the average mortality rate of the people present, they only had one!
I saw a long post about this on tumblr and they were saying something like, one person dies a year on the playa at burning man so we shouldn't feel sorry for the one person who died this year.
So dehumanizing. I was reading that whole post in awe of how fucking empty some people are inside. Like holy shit that's cruel.
It sucks for them but if you're not losing sleep for the tens of thousands that die of starvation each year then I don't know why you should feel bad for someone who intentionally went to a festival in the middle of the desert and died of something (we don't know what) during their trip.
I guess I'm just one of those people then. the worlds problems do tend to keep me up at night.
I legit have a hard time sleeping. Because all I can think is, everything sure does suck and people die for the wrong reasons.
Get over it
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/deaths-per-day
Death is a part of life, I get it but I'm not going to be unempathetic piece of jaded trash over it.
Then you must be ignoring information to show the truth that you want the data to show. Events need to abide by strict OH&S guidelines. If an injury or death occurs due to the negligence of the event planners, they need to be held accountable. This means that a death at an event should be compared to other events because day-to-day life isn't governed by OH&S.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/2962187
The truth that I want? It's the simple statistical truth, I'm not doing any interpretation! The fact that it takes place during an event doesn't change the fact that the death rate of the population there is lower than it is in the general population so statistically speaking if these people didn't go more than one would have died just living there everyday lives instead of partying in the desert.
Want me to do interpretation? You're putting 70k persons in the middle of the desert in the US with tons of drugs, OSHA or not, death at burning man happens and it's too be expected and considering the number of people in the place, the length of the event, what people do there and the country it's taking place in, it's surprising there isn't more every year.
This year's is not the first and unless the event stops, it's not the last
https://www.salon.com/2019/09/05/deaths-sexual-assault-and-art-controversy-color-this-years-burning-man/
https://edm.com/news/burning-man-2022-arrests-death
https://journal.burningman.org/2015/08/news/brc-news/we-lost-spoono-today/
No cause of death has been released for this year's deceased, it might as well be a suicide, what could OSHA do about that exactly?
Heck, it's written on the fucking tickets that death rarely happen (implying they do) but injuries often do!
LOL you're really running with this line of thinking. Might people who plan to go to a week-long strenuous event in the desert lead to a sample that has some selection bias? For instance, selecting out the entirety of the demographic that is currently hospitalized, currently debilitatingly ill?
In which cause you should compare mortality rates with another group like that. Not the entire rest of the age demographic (which has all those sick people you selected out).
I don't really care either way, just found this argument kind of hilarious.
You've got people of all ages there and the average death per year at burning man seems to be pretty close to one, some years even had three, some years had multiple suicides, some years had people die outside the premise from things that happened at the event...
Again, nothing unusual about one person dying out of a crowd 70k during a week. You can be in the best shape of your life and die of aneurysm!
Do you have any hospitalized people there? Because the USA has 919,649 hospital beds. Anyone needing assisted living? Because the US has 810,000 people in assisted living. Now the 70,000 number doesn't seem so big eh?
My point is that 'people capable of going to an event' is already a helluva selection, especially when you compare it to the population that includes all those sick people.
Just suicides and unintentional injuries are enough to make it pretty close to 1/week/70k.
Again, I provided sources in another comment, you're just ignoring the stats and the history of the event because it doesn't fit with what you want the event to be 🤷
Heck, we don't even know this year's cause of death, might as well be a suicide or an overdose and have nothing to do with the weather!
Haha I don't care so much about burning man as much as this method you have.
So by your math, Somewhere like disney with 50k visitors a day is still remarkably safe as long as less than 10 people a day die there?
I used to work in a casino where we would get 6k visitors a day on average and we had two to three deaths a year. Just because most clients don't realize it happens doesn't mean it doesn't. Same for Disney, some people die on the premise, some people die when they've reached the hospital, but yes, when you have that many people coming every day that shit does happen. Considering its size, Disney has medical staff on the premise (heck, we had medical staff for the 1500 employees and our clients) and they might even have their own ambulance service so as to not have to wait to ship people to the hospital.
I like how you chose casino, establishments known to especially attract the 85+ cohort, which I didn't even include in my 10 a day disney # to be nice. How many 85+ you think they got at burning man?
Do you think 10 people a day die at a single disney park behind the scenes? You're dying on this hill?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_at_Walt_Disney_World https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_at_Disneyland_Resort
sorry but theme park accidents are fascinating to me.
You should really see the death numbers at the Six Flags parks though. Those places are like a god damn death trap for humans. It's insane how many people get injured or just die on rides.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_at_Six_Flags_parks
edit cause I hit enter too soon
same, I assume you have heard of / watched the train wreck that was Action Park?
Yes and I believe I once saw an old recording of the guys from Alice In Chains doing like a live broadcast there for MTV. Pretty sure it was an episode of Headbangers Ball.
Fucking hell mate, I posted the stats for 2019 and 2021, go check them, even people 35-44 are at 200 death/100k/year, 130 deaths for those 25-34, 70 deaths for those 15-24, do you think they're all bedridden or something?
Are your feelings the hill you are willing to die on or you're able to accept that CDC's stats might be closer to the truth than what you feel is right?
fucking hell mate, do you think selection bias is a fictional concept inapplicable to your calculations or are you going to continue to pretend that taking an entire countries population and comparing it to any sliver of the country 1:1 doesn't fail basic representativeness analysis?
Do you think not all kinds of people go to Disney? Why do you think I gave the numbers for people under 44 except to eliminate most people who die from diseases?
If I add in the 85+ to the disney calculations it only makes your case worse (drives the # higher). I left it out to be nice.
Would you seriously take your family to disney as long as less than 10 people a day died there? Like get your head out of the #s for a second think with your common sense.
Lets do another really simple one. Imagine a playground near you serving kids 5-14. Are you taking your kids as long as less than 13 kids died there last year? Or are you maybe thinking its unsafe after 1 death? WHY?
You seriously are not understanding the importance of comparing representative groups and this 'compare any slice of the country to the entire country 1:1' method is ludicrous, nothing to do with burning man
edit: hmm the park example is complicated by the fact we don't know how many citizens the park servers. Im finding numbers ranging all over, from 2k to 10k to much higher in cities. For this example we can use a city park with 10k annual visitors, so we would expect 1-2 deaths a year at this park and not bat an eye yes? Either way I think you get my point. Good luck
You're the only one talking about if I would go or not, what I'm talking about since the beginning is that considering the number of people present and publically available stats, it's clear that there's nothing unusual about deaths happening during these events and OP calling it a tragedy is exaggerated. I'm sure they didn't even know that deaths happen most years at Burning Man and they only realised it happened this year because attention was brought to the event because of the weather. Same for Disney, same for any place where there's thousands of people coming and going every day.
Shit happens, there's statistically less shit happening there than elsewhere, get over it.
so you don't think its a tragedy when someone dies?
Tens of thousands dying of starvation? That's a tragedy.
Kids being shot in school? That's a tragedy.
A dude that went to an event in the middle of the desert where people die pretty much every year? Unless they got killed by someone else then fuck no that's not a tragedy.
I've got bad news about global mortality and human's inability to live forever if you think every death is a tragedy.
Are you just using the definition of tragedy here? We can't have any nuance about this?
I can call out someone for acting like the death of one guy who decided to go party in the desert is anything but a sob story to generate clicks.
There:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/deaths-per-day
This year they only had one death at Burning Man? Well there's close to 2 death a second on a global scale. Tell me again how tragic that death was and how tragic them being stuck in mud was. Heck, I've seen reports of up to five deaths in a single year at BM, did you care about it? Nah you didn't.
look, I saw a post on another site where someone was making fun of these people and making fun of the person who died. That's just edgelord shit in my book.
If you want to get all technical about a word, whatever, I'm not here for that kind argument. What is tragic to some isn't to others obviously. Empathy sure is going out the window and people will do anything to justify being a piece of shit apparently.
And don't sit here and tell me what I don't care about. You don't fucking know.
You could just pledge to save lives instead...