this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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that's not what materialism means, at least in marxist therm. materialism means humans facts are dependent on space and time, so to say. so, the relationships of productions, are historically connoted and situated in space. that's why we are materialists. historical materialists.
we reject idealism: we don't believe that culture is the engine of history, for example. we reject all forms of idealism, we reject the "idea" of state (for example), the state for us is a product of the relationships of production . we believe material relationships of production are the engine of history.
that's a very synthetic answer. but the point is: materialism is not primarily concerned with physical objects or "things." Instead, it centers on the intricate interplay of historical and spatial contexts in shaping human realities.
Well I don't believe in spacetime either. I think it's a mental construct. In the Information age, much of the means of production are explicitly, indisputably made of information. Agreements to buy, sell, and distribute which form the basis of capitalism are social constructs, existing only as products of human thought. Belief in currency, and capital, and wealth, is the driving force of history. That's part of culture.
Outside of a misunderstanding of materialism, what does this mean? Like, do you not believe that time is a dimension of space? That was the big breakthrough of Einsteins theory of relativity. He proved that gravity only works if time is a dimension of space.
Ultimately, though, all the infrastructure to support that exists in the material world. You cannot have a modern information age economy without the material basis of mines to dig up the raw material for those computers, factories to assemble those computers, and power to run those computers.
yes, all of this is the product of labour. and HOW it has been produced matters.
Right, but the mines, factories, and power are just a symbol created by the human brain to abstract away reality from our perceptions.
what do you mean by this?
You can call them what you want, but you won't have an information economy without them.
Oh yes, I believe in taking the rules of my perceptual interface very seriously. If people believe in mines, then I get to work on computers. See, that's culture creating labour relations. That's what I'm talking about with idealistic communism.
Well, I think the mine only has miners because people believe it's a mine, and I think the products of the mine only have value because people believe they're useful.
yes, we believe capital is relational ofc, and historical situated. there is nothing natural or normal about it. it's a phase, a period, an arrangement. But culture is a product of the relationships of production, that's our epistemology. Humans do stuff, how "we create" our world (so, our labor) is what really matters. I hope it's clear now.
We create the world by thinking about it. Mothers, teachers, priests, musicians, historians, scientists, analysts, artists, philosophers, and programmers are all workers, they all perform labour, and they all spend all day doing nothing but shaping human thought (except for mothers, who also have to raise the children). They spend all day producing culture.
all fine, you might be more Weberian than Marxist. Try to read about Max Weber. But he wasn't a communist. at all.
Well if he's not a communist then I'm not going to agree with him. Ownership of the means of production by the workers is essential to a fair society, as is the abolition of class, currency, and the state. Wealth must be distributed from each according to ability to each according to need.
I think it's a matter of scope you're not considering. Mechanical materialism is what you are referring to when you are creating a division between mechanical substance and metaphysical substance. Marx draws on Hegel who draws on Spinoza who says that mechanical substance and metaphysical substance are composed of the same thing, while understanding that metaphysical substance is self generative and not determined by mechanical substance in and of itself.
Marx's dialectical materialism is a unity of social reality meaning it's an understanding that there is both a true form of existence in the material world with complex social concepts existing as a part of that reality. The point of this epistemology is that it helps us understand where truth comes from (that is beyond metaphysical symbolic truth), which is a useful tool in actually changing the world.
Sure there are mystic truths beyond the scope of Marxism, but they are functionally useless in changing the world which is the primary goal of Marxism.
Are you saying that property dualism is compatible with Marx's materialism?
Oh, now this seems like a concrete claim we can test. So, would propaganda fall within one of these mystic truths or within Marxian materialism?
Marxian materialism. It is not property dualism because in my view Marx agrees with Hegel that property dualism subjects the metaphysical to be subordinate to the physical. Propaganda is a metaphysical notion informed by physical observations but those also physical observations get their character from the notion. It's a bit ridiculous to assume propaganda, which is defined by its capability to propagate ideology, is a purely physical thing and would involve a ridiculous amount of loopholes to explain within a mechanical materialist worldview. Marxian materialism doesn't hold a primacy of one or the other but doesn't claim an agnosticism to the difference, rather there is a very specific dialectic between the two.
"It is dualist because it is monist. Marx’s ontological monism consisted in affirming the irreducibility of Being to thought, and, at the same time, in reintegrating thoughts with the real as a particular form of human activity." Sartre, Critique of Dialectic Reason
Philosophy is not exactly my strong point but I think you might get a kick at least out of Critique of Dialectic Reason if you are trying to triangulate how you feel about Marxian materialism. As you are now, you are completely denying the character of the real as possible to be understood at all and reducing it to a matrix of symbols completely detached from the real at all, which doesn't incorporate that while the symbolic and social reality is the lens with which our minds functions to make "sense" of the real there still exists a real that informs those symbols at the same time.
Or in other words how can you possibly hope to change anything when you can only ever know nothing.
There's an old saying from chaos magic, and maybe you've heard it in Assassin's Creed as the philosophy of the Assassins too: "nothing is true. everything is permitted."
If I believe in nothing, then I can choose to believe in anything. I find unrealism to be revolutionary.
I think that is a great basis for revolutionizing our ideas, and in many many ways I adhere to that same ethos. I think it needs to be dialectically balanced however with the need to enact real social change on a society wide scale, where things are true given certain assumptions. While the assumptions may be problematic in certain contexts, the outcomes are undeniably real and that is the strength of Marxism. We can deny the symbolic as "truth" but we can't deny the real no matter how we try.
Why not a simple relativist answer to the problem?
"I want to have a revolution because capitalism causes me to perceive myself and others as suffering. I have a subjective distaste for suffering and choose to impose my personal views upon the world by supporting communism. I will use the scientific method to determine which actions of mine reduce perceived suffering, and then I will do those actions."
And I say that human behaviour is not defined by whatever may be real, it's only defined by human perception, which does not align with whatever may be real if anything is.
According to conventional neuroscience, the brain is somehow capable of transforming 130 million binary nervous system signals into the sensation of sight, without having been taught to do so. Likewise, the interface theory of perception holds that the mind is capable of transforming whatever does exist into the perceptual interface we see today.
If genes can configure a brain to produce sensations in the absence of stimuli, what is hard to believe about conscious realism?
But there's not an absence of stimuli. Genes encode for light receptors, which respond to light. This triggers something that is then amplified as a chemical signal, which is then sent to the brain, where the signals are then processed into an 'image'.