If email were invented today people would complain about how complex and annoying it is to sign up.
OMG another account?! Why can't I just use my discord smh
In college I had to write a program to send emails. This was around 2012. Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from. There are obviously ways to sign the message and verify it and most email servers block messages that don't have these because of how trivial it is to fake. It's basically like putting a name tag on that says "Joe Biden" and everyone believing you're the president.
I didn't do anything malicious but I did mildly prank my girlfriend. I don't remember what I did but I'm pretty sure I told her before I did it. I really didn't want to end up getting expelled for """hacking""" so I didn't do anything remotely bad. The irony is the assignment wouldn't have worked and been as interesting if my campus had the proper security measures to block the messages.
It could be that the web client for our email mentioned something about the sender being unverified and not to trust it but I don't remember.
Basically we had to send the low level commands of an email for it to go through. After doing this I realized something weird. The email gets to say who it is from.
I remember realizing this and thinking it was weird too when I was reading about SMTP. Specifically, the MAIL FROM command.
Also related.
I almost got kicked out of school for this! I sent an email to my girlfriend from some girl that we didn't like, saying something like "you're a huge bitch, haha just kidding this is actually jballs not the chick we don't like."
Problem is that I wrote my girlfriend's email address wrong, so it bounced back to the sender (the girl we didn't like).
So I had to explain to a university dean exactly what I did and how I didn't actually "hack into" the girl's email account. That was fun.
Using your email address as username is a common problem for a lot of users.
Some of them are even completely shocked that they can use a different password and don’t understand, that their mail is just their login credentials for this specific site.
The feature “login with Apple/Google/Facebook” exists for a reason.
I don’t get the email analogy.
People did and DO complain about setting up email. ISP email is a great example of this. People forget their IMAP and SMTP address configuration stuff all the damn time. Always have.
I used to do home IT, and I had to help people through that crap constantly.
That said, these days people have gravitated to clients like gmail or outlook. Those push the user onto a certain domain, which makes setup dead simple. This is what mastodon.social is doing now. Making it so people don’t have to think about the instance at sign up.
When it was invented, it was complex and annoying, even by today's standards.
I flirted with journalism before getting my degree in CS.
It's not an exaggeration to say that the faculty and many of the students were almost proudly "bad at math" and basically bad with tech too, other than learning the basics of a Macbook.
Doesn't have to be that way and many journalists are smart, great people, but there's a weird self fulfilling culture when it comes to tech. Not totally sure about how tech focused writers would be similar or different.
Edit: Just googling "journalists bad at math" and got this from the Columbia Journalism Review:
“In many cases, they got into journalism to stay away from math.” Journalists love to joke about how we suck at math.
Edit 2: I guess I was bringing up my experience to be an example of how many journalists do not have a strong grasp of technical concepts and sometimes are almost proud of that. So it doesn't surprise me that many may have struggled with Mastodon.
That being said, that attitude is far closer to the average user than, say, the user base of this platform, which is likely far more tech savvy. Streamlined user experience is not a bad thing if you desire mainstream use and is something that could be improved, though Mastodon has been making strides in that regard.
It’s interesting to me how often “math skills” are conflated with “the ability to understand technology.” Like I’m passionate about HCI/social computing research, comfortable navigating the Fediverse, jailbroke my iPod as a teen, modded Civilization (DOS) as a kid — I’m also “just okay” at math lol, didn’t even take Calculus in HS. I wonder how many people (like the journalists you describe) feel discouraged from exploring technologies because of the false “math skill = tech skill” narrative, even if plenty of people who suck at math excel at understanding technologies!
(I also wonder how many people who “suck at math” don’t actually suck at math but weren’t given a good math education during school — but that’s a rant for another thread 😂)
If you can write and have technical know-how, technical writing pays more than journalism.
As someone who worked in IT support at a university and later as a sys admin: I believe MOST people (including young people) can not use the internet or a computer when it goes beyond installing and using a (popular) app from the App Store.
Many people can not, for example, look up a program via search engine, go to its website, find and click the correct download link and then install the program. Many people don’t even use websites anymore, they only use applications.
Their voices are missing online simply because they are basically tech illiterate. And I think that is a huge problem.
I’ll add to this that most people don’t understand the difference between a service and a client. Yes, even though they use email, to them it’s just “my gmail” and they don’t think past that. They don’t know you can use different clients, or the web. They just don’t. It’s an app on their phone.
The reason the internet was so great in the early 2000s is that THOSE PEOPLE WERENT ON IT.
Which is funny because if you open the App Store and search for Mastodon you'll find an app you can install and will prompt you to create an account and login.
Yes it will default to mastodon.social or whatever but that's a fine default.
Folks that say it's too hard just don't even want to try.
I'm sure it's not lack of technical skill it's a mental block, I've helped so many people set up software that is literally clicking ok a dozen times then they're like 'oh let me print this, hang on I need to compile a firmware update and flash it using a telegraph key...' big brands have the shittiest software, but people feel they should be able to understand because it's professional but something like an open source federated social network is nerd stuff so they feel the the shouldn't be able to.
Case in point, I installed MPV on a friends laptop because VLC wouldn't play the file without crashing, the install process is super simple but they have green on black hacker terminal output instead of a process bar and you type Y when prompted instead of clicking yes -- it gave her anxiety just watching me do it, said maybe we should try uninstalling VLC and reinstalling instead... Of course mpv played the video flawlessly and used less CPU and ram doing so which warmed her to it. There's no way she couldn't have understood everything and done it herself but the fact it's not as corporate as VLC would have written it off (and wow that's a crazy thing to say, I love that there's so much great open source software that VLC is middle of the road)
To be fair, if you want content on Mastodon, you have to actively go out, find people, and follow them. After you get past that Step 1 of signing up, your home page is empty. There's no algorithm that automatically deposits content on the main page. You have to do a little bit of work to get anything. As you say, doing this work is not that god damn hard, but sadly for about 80% of people (maybe more), this is an impassible barrier.
On the bright side, once you do get past this barrier, none of the Mastodon content that you are getting is from that bottom eighty percent.
Also the first barrier of picking a server (how it works, the rules of every instance, checking who they federate with) and an app (the will to test multiple apps, learning that to login you have to input the server url manually since most aren't listed in the apps), to the people who read all the things it's tedious but doable, for the rest it's "Which one is the RIGHT choice?" and just stay at the door.
Also servers with poorly written rules don't help (example: mstdn.mx says porn and politics are forbidden, but in reality they allow them as long as you tag then properly).
These kind of posts don't help either, because it makes people feel like they are too stupid to join and rather stick to the known services, but omit all the actual process that someone has to go through.
to the people who read all the things it’s tedious but doable, for the rest it’s “Which one is the RIGHT choice?” and just stay at the door
Exactly. I'm a programmer and I do server administration on a small scale, but when I went to sign up for Mastodon my first reaction was, "How the hell am I supposed to know what instance I want my account to be on?" and I left. After a couple of weeks of absorbing random bits of information about how federation works I went back and completed the account creation process, but I really doubt that the average user who just wants to sign up for a service and use it is going to get past that step.
Apps need to automatically assign users randomly to one of the non-controversial general instances, and letting them change it if they want.
Lemmy and other fediverse clients need to do this too imo
I think the trickiest part is finding people on other instances and needing to copy/paste their links in your home instance's search bar before you can follow or reblog, especially if you're following a link someone's shared elsewhere. It's a small nuisance, but it adds up over time, and it's already more work than most social media consumers want to bother with. For Mastodon to truly take off, that needs to be automated or hidden, because most people are going to give up before they even get an explanation.
The problem is the paradox of "it doesn't matter what server you pick" while also giving them a choice.
If choices don't matter, why have a choice?
Although I disagree that it doesn't matter
It's pretty obvious 99% of users bounce off the signup page. People who think otherwise simply are too disconnected from normie reality
Here is what happens
Let's join this thing
I have to choose a server ? Ok which one ?
Wow that's so many, is this important or cani pick at random ?
If you pick wrong, everything you write could be deleted or never seen by anyone.
Ok, well I better choose properly
Read server rules pages for 2-3 minutes
There's a distraction
Later, joins threads
And those who don't, bounce off the fact that it's not intuitive to follow someone from their user page.
Mastodon is not as complicated as it is sometimes made out to be, but it'a disingenuous to pretend that it's simple, either.
It is kinda hard finding interesting people to follow. Hardly anyone I would have followed on Twitter is on Mastodon.
Every Reddit and Twitter user over the last few months: "OMG The Fediverse is so hard and complicated how can people figure this out?!?!?!!!!11eleven"
My brother(s) in data: It takes like 5 minutes to understand how it works and you're good to go (maybe 10 if you were the paint-chip-or-glue-eating-type back in school.)
I feel like yall are also overestimating the tech comprehension of a lot of the younger generation. Every action has been so simplified some young teenagers are as tech illiterate as some of their grandparents. If its not inmediately obvious or requires a workaround, they just give up.
Yeah, especially when you imagine that they are accustomed to not having to seek out knowledge or even entertainment. When algorithms feed you everything and your attention becomes a commodity you don't need to develop the skill to actually find it, or the wherewithal to even imagine that you need to go out and find it.
I believe those of us who were online in the 1995-2010 era remember what it was like to have an internet full of possibilities that you could explore and discover, but that was the exception.
I hate to be the guy to say it, but its a genuine lack of curiosity about "how things work."
Both are exaggerated, but fediverse apps absolutely need better onboarding and it's a totally fixable problem, but not if the community continues to ignore it.
Personally I thought first impressions of Mastodon (and Lemmy) were abysmal. Being told to pick a server without knowing what that means or the consequences of that choice just scares people away. Unless someone has a specific server in mind they should not even be asked to pick one. Instead a number of existing servers should volunteer as curated core servers and new users are automatically assigned to one of those. There can still be a "let me choose" link that goes to a full list of servers if they prefer to browse them all
I disagree, it's not as easy and normal as Twitter and Threads. Stop lying to yourselves. It's Dev's requirement to make it user friendly for the audience and they haven't. Otherwise this wouldn't be a thing people are saying lol. Devs and fanboys are so in their own bubble it's why nothing thrives
I opened the mastodon app. I clicked to select a server and create an account.
It gave me an error about timezones not included in the list.
Then i remember i tried it 2weeks ago and i never took the time to troubleshoot it.
I'm still unable to access mastodon
They should try navigating Facebook
Facebook is a fucking nightmare for people used to having control over their browsing.
Even Lemmy has people saying they don't understand it's complexity when it's literally the same steps. it's honestly exhausting how little effort people are willing to put in basic technology.
Is this a troll post? There are multiple shortfalls that make Mastodon harder to use than twitter for the average user. Here's a great Op-ed explaining them: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/06/op-ed-why-the-great-twittermigration-didnt-quite-pan-out/
The tl;dr is that decentralization is no selling point for the average user and if the experience using Mastodon is any worse than using Twitter, people simply won't switch. And there are numerous big issues with Mastodon's usability that make it inferior to Twitter: That there is no proper way of exploring creators, that following creators is a hot mess, that Mastodon instances can block each other and thus make it impossible for their users to interact with each other. All those drawbacks come from being decentralized, while the only positive, not being ruled by a billionaire man-child, clearly doesn't bother people as much.
Anyone who claims the Fediverse is hard... just ask them if they use email. Is that hard?
I know it's hard for tech literate people to understand but choosing a server is daunting. Most people chose their email because it was linked to a service they were already familiar with like Google and Microsoft. There's no familiarity with the Lemmy or mastodon instances and there are so many of them that people who already have trouble learning new technologies get to deal with decision fatigue on top of that. People like what is familiar and having a service that mostly works the same is still very confusing for them.
That's what bothers me about these sorts of threads. We represent a completely self-selected group of people who have not just managed to create accounts on the Fediverse, but then decided to stick around.
Of course we think it's simple.
We do not represent "typical users" (whatever that means) of mainstream platforms, and yes, Mastodon, Lemmy etc. have a lot of work ahead of them to make themselves appealing to those users.
It doesn't really help to talk about how simple the Fediverse is, or to shame people who find it confusing. The only thing that will actually help take it mainstream is UX work to remove the friction and make it as simple to use as we claim it is.
I am tech literate and even for me the choice of “which instance to register on” delayed my Lemmy sign up for 2 weeks. I eventually just signed up on 3 of them but now I have 3 different accounts each with their own set of subscriptions and favorites.
Aside from that, the Lemmy UI is a usability disaster and needs an overhaul. I’ve been thinking of giving that a try but I already have other projects that are taking up all my free time at the moment.
Oh, and then there’s the bugs.
Going to play devil’s advocate and say this is similar to the early days of e-mail, and e-mail has since matured quite a bit. Normal users don’t need to worry about the intricacies of IMAP or POP3 or SMTP in general.
Idk, I wasn’t really around in those early days, but it’s my guess that the experience wasn’t as turnkey as it is now.
Similarly, we’re in the early days of the fediverse, and while it’s not as complicated as the aforementioned example, I do believe the experience is going to get more and more streamlined as time goes on, just as it did with email.
At the moment I’m just glad they don’t charge for use the way old email did, and in some cases, still do
Sorry if this is a dumb but I legit never got into Twitter, and I only use Instagram to follow friends and bands I like.
How do I Mastadon? I'm not being sarcastic, not even a little. Like I literally have absolutely no concept of what I'm supposed to do on it or how to engage with it. Same with pixelfed tbh, like I open it, I see a milliong posts that have no comments or likes, I get confused and then I leave.
Like what do you do? How do you use it? Pretend I'm one of the idiot journalists this post is making fun of, happy to jump on that self-accepting sword!
It is almost impossible to make mastodon similar of an experience as Twitter was. I used Mastodon and found it kinda boring so I didn't even try. But I did want to use Lemmy since I am a Reddit refugee. I had a pretty hard time trying to figure out how to choose the best instance, where to find my communities (should I join technology at beehaw or lemmy.world?). I still somewhat get confused trying to wrap my head around the fediverse AND I HAVE A FUCKING COMPUTER ENGINEERING DEGREE. If you think that the average user is gonna confidently just make a user and not get confused at all the new concepts you don't know normies.
Let’s walk though the flow a typical user would experience:
SERVERS: Mastodon is not a single website. To use it, you need to make an account with a provider—we call them servers—that lets you connect with other people across Mastodon.
Search or paste URL
@taylorswift13@hello.2heng.xin wtf?I can kinda get it. There are tons of servers, all with different rules, and I'm guessing some don't federate with eachother. I compared ~20 servers rules and how fast they loaded before chosing one.
Search sucks. Home feed is only chronological, so you need be careful about who you follow. I.e. if you follow someone that posts important stuff, but only weekly, it will get drowned out by following people that post every hour. Then there's the weird design issue that all replies aren't necessarily synced between servers, which is unituitive.
Mastodon needs to implement some kind of better search, and a better algorithm for the home feed, and make it the default.
Journalists are just going to go where the most people are because it's their job to self-promote.
I'm a software engineer with a decade of experience, and I'm frustrated by the experience so far. Bad UX is bad UX.
First post on Lemmy, would love to share a few thoughts with you all :)
At a basic level, I believe the cycle of a social network has this basic structure:
people -> create content -> engages (including share) -> bring people -> create content -> etc
IMO the main reason behind the success of Twitter or Reddit is the width and depth of the content they have: if you login now it's extremely easy to find content about virtually anything you might want. This provides an immediate benefit to the new user, who's motivated to stay, learn the platform and eventually engage with it.
Behind the content, there are people. The other magic of social networking is that the users, basically, become the creators / curators of the content themselves. It seems so obvious when we think about it, and has powerful networking effects, one of which is the engagement between users.
This is what makes the step of "user onboarding" critical for the life of a social network, and reducing it to "people that are tech illiterate don't belong to the fediverse" is a dangerous and counterproductive argument for the health of the system (and a narrative that I think we, as the "early adopters", should try to avoid as much as possible).
I believe that the success of the fediverse (as a system / protocol, not just as a social network) depends on having width and depth in its communities to avoid collapsing into a "walled garden approach" - and this depends in large part in the contribution of people with many interests and experiences, in order to "build the content" over time - regardless of the instance / server.
A few examples of topics that I loved to follow on Reddit where the user base is not "traditionally techie", but worked really hard to produce excellent content:
Because of this, and because I'd love to see project like Lemmy succeed over time, I think that improving the User Experience is the real priority for us as a community to build and strengthen the fediverse.
There's a lot of UX best practices that could be lifted by best-in-class apps and services so we don't have to start from zero and I don't think there would be any real downsides - but I'd love to hear from others as well on what they think :)
I think it's a mix of the way journalism works in the age of overstimulation (everything is the best/worst anyone has ever witnessed) and old(er) people being unfathomably tech-illiterate.
And I don't even mean that negatively. I often really am unable to fathom how disorienting even the slightest change in a software they're used to is to them.
If my mother were to use the birdsite, and they'd change their theme from blue to red one day, she would literally be unable to use it, because "it's all different now"
Also, mastodon does have some usability problems, though they are not that big imo.
Decentralised and open source social network.