this post was submitted on 19 Jan 2026
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I am a Marxist and a materialist. Ideas and beliefs don't arise ex nihilo. They emerge to fit the material reality in which they exist. What are the material realities that lead to carnism? I would argue that there are only two that matter:

  1. "I benefit from objectifying these animals."
  2. "These animals are too weak to stop me from objectifying them."

Boil away the justifications, strip away the decorum, and this is what you get. But what if that person enters a situation where they benefit from objectifying me? What if I'm too weak to stop them? What barrier prevents them from doing so? My intelligence? My capacity for suffering? Their empathy and goodwill? None of that saves cattle, or pigs, or chickens. Why would it save me? I'm not foolish enough to think I'm special.

And look, survival situations are one thing. If you kill and eat an animal because the alternative is starvation, you have decided that the animal's life is worth less than your life. If someone decided that my life was worth less than their life, and a situation came up where they had to act on that decision, I wouldn't begrudge it. I wouldn't like it, I'd fight it, but I wouldn't begrudge it. The thought of someone deciding my life is worth less than their pleasure, though? Turns my blood to fucking ice.

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[–] InappropriateEmote@hexbear.net 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (15 children)

I understand the thought process, but I don't think carnism is based on "They're too weak to stop me"

Not OP, but I don't think he's saying carnism is "based" on that presupposition, rather it is ultimately the justification that allows for the objectification of something that undeniably possesses sentience. It is the point of failure in the supposed reasoning that most carnists would use as their rationale for not doing to humans what they readily do to animals.

Just as you might not eat an animal due to e.g. its capacity for suffering. A carnist wouldn't eat you due to your being a human.

But that's just it. Why did you change the second sentence to "a carnist wouldn't eat you due to your being a human" rather than stick with the reason you gave for a vegan not eating an animal? Yeah, a vegan wouldn't eat an animal due to that animal's capacity for suffering, but so too, a carnist wouldn't eat a human due to their recognized capacity for suffering.. The fact that you further distanced the carnist from the root of the issue as you already stated it (empathy - the recognition of a capacity for suffering) by making it about "being human" is very telling. Why should the humanness matter? Ultimately it's because (or it should be - it's what most would claim is because) we empathize with other humans - we recognize their capacity for suffering. What is it about an lifeform being human that stops we modern people from thinking it's ok to objectify humans to the extent that we would be ok with slaughtering them because they taste good? Empathy - the recognition of their capacity to suffer as we ourselves do. But many non-human animals who carnists still are ok slaughtering because they taste good have that capacity to suffer too, and that is where the carnist's disconnect in their stated reasoning occurs, that is where BeanisBrain is pointing out that the carnist is failing to live by the thing that they (and generally we as a society) claim is what matters when it comes to other humans - as a human I know other humans suffer. We are now at a point scientifically, philosophically where we can say with the same certainty as the previous statement that as a mammal I know other mammals suffer. So carnists have to come up with other excuses, often telling themselves the lie that these non-humans don't suffer, but it is too obvious of a lie that they don't on some level recognize it as such, so doing so reveals that ultimately, it is not actually their empathy that keeps them from harming other humans, because that empathy fails when it comes to creatures that don't lack the capacity for suffering but only DO lack the capacity to stop the carnists from objectifying them, ignoring their suffering, and slaughtering them because they taste good. I'm really tired, inebriated and I know I've been repetitive and less than perfectly cogent, but I really hope some of this has been enough to shine some light on how your comment is really proving OP u/BeanisBrain's point.

Nobody's calling for the consumption of orphan children.

u/tomenzgg beat me to it, but apparently you haven't read A Modest Proposal.

[–] LeninWeave@hexbear.net 11 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (11 children)

u/tomenzgg beat me to it, but apparently you haven't read A Modest Proposal.

I just want to reply to this part specifically. A Modest Proposal wasn't actually calling to eat orphan children, it was satire based on the fact that calling to eat orphan children (actually, it was the children of poor people) would be shocking and repulsive to any reader. I don't know if that was what you were actually saying, but I think it is important that AFAIK no one at the time was unironically calling to eat orphan children. Of course, as part of that satire Swift did liken the Irish to livestock, which is something that plenty of colonizers have unironically said of the colonized. It just wasn't the case in the particular case of that essay.

[–] juniper@hexbear.net 11 points 2 weeks ago (10 children)

Hexbears Understand Satire Challenge: Impossible

[–] InappropriateEmote@hexbear.net 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It was a joke. I know exactly what A Modest Proposal was written to be, @LeninWeave@hexbear.net. It was a way to end a heavier comment with a lighthearted poke. Hexbears Understand Satire Challenge: Impossible, indeed, juniper, but I'm not the one who failed that challenge here.

[–] juniper@hexbear.net 0 points 2 weeks ago

We're all having fun here, get over yourself.

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