this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2026
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[–] blackberry28@sh.itjust.works -4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm against military duty as well, but why do those protests always assume that conscripts will get sent into warzones? That's definitely not the case in germany. Conscripts will never get sent into warzones unless germany gets actively attacked. Those protestors think that if military duty gets reactivated, every conscript gets instantly sent to Ukraine. Ffs, this is Germany, not Russia.

Not only that, in the past, Germany had an excellent system of substitute service for people who opted against serving in the military, with plenty of options to choose from.

[–] wizzor@sopuli.xyz 35 points 1 week ago (7 children)

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

In Finland we have mandatory conscription. It is a very good way of getting a military, whoch is dofficult to use for expansionist adventures, but very good for defence.

It is not cheap. Putting a million people through the training represents a significant loss of GDP, but imagine trying to attack a country where half the population has even some serious military training.

[–] kossa@feddit.org 14 points 1 week ago (7 children)

It is a very good way of getting a military

It is a very effective way of getting a military, allright. But good? No! It's like "slavery is a very good way to build some pyramids".

[–] 666dollarfootlong@lemmy.world 21 points 1 week ago (6 children)

Its not mandatory in the way slavery is, you can choose to do a civilian service instead. I do think there is some good value in having people serve their societies in less voluntary ways, I think the unifying social effects of that alone is really valuable, in this increasingly individualistic age we live in

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[–] susieq0044@sh.itjust.works 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I like your example, as the pyramids weren’t built by slaves.

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[–] CharlesDarwin1809@piefed.world 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think there is value in Finland's system, when Russia clearly is a huge threat to Europe.

Maybe every part of Europe should have a system like that. Perhaps everybody, rich or poor, and perhaps even older as well as younger (not kids or pensioners though) could be trained to contribute in some way to national defence. This could include training for building weapons in factories for example. Look at how important Ukraine's weapons companies are currently, when it comes to their national defence.

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[–] stoy@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 week ago

Swede here, I went to muster back in the early 2000s, but my hearing was too bad, and I was failed out.

At the time I was happy, I wasn't ready for it, but these days I think it would have been a great source of self dicipline for me.

Eh, in either case, from what I have heard/read, mandatory conscription will also boost social cohesion of a population which makes sense.

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[–] yayaro@sopuli.xyz 19 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Good. Slavery, forced work and stripping people off bodily autonomy is not a European value, and people who are forcing authoritarianism down our throats are no different than Putin supporters. I will fight for values, not for the flag and a song, and if Europe loses its course, its no longer worth defending.

[–] varyingExpertise@feddit.org 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

So, assume the Ukranian people had all followed that principle. What would their daily lives look like now?

[–] yayaro@sopuli.xyz 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Well, all the men (like half a million of them?) who were involuntarily conscripted, kidnapped from their homes, tortured to comply and killed in action would prefer to be alive.

[–] varyingExpertise@feddit.org 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Alright. So in principle, the whole world should bow to the one head of state that is bound to exist somewhere that does not subscribe to these high ideals. Got it.

[–] kossa@feddit.org 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

But...not forcing men to fight, doesn't mean that there's no army? I'm confused.

But anyway, if your country is attacked, but nobody (or too few) want to defend it voluntarily...maybe, that is kind of a vote with the feet, that either your odds are very bad anyways or that people rather chose to live in occupation and deem it less bad than fighting and dying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[–] Bruuder@feddit.org 5 points 1 week ago (3 children)

You say you are fighting for values, but if you're not fighting for the nation or the union of nations that represent those values, it's just empty rhetoric

[–] for_some_delta@beehaw.org 11 points 1 week ago

That's one way to say, "the nation-state must be part of your identity". I'm not into fighting wars for the wealthy.

[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago

What values? Genuinely. Which nation or union of nations is upholding good values? Germany? If you protest against genocide there, you will be beaten and jailed by the same government that wants to send you to die in Russia (again).

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[–] phoenixz@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I fuñly agree with them that it shouldn't be necessary

I also understand how the world is and that currently a tiny few oligarchs and dictators are willing to burn the world to rule over the ashes and unfortunately there is really only one way to stop that

:(

Yes, unfortunately, it's a necessary evil. The alternatives would be much worse.

[–] rocnat@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Fight for our own oligarchs?

[–] susieq0044@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 week ago (13 children)

That’s naive. Putin is building an army with 1.5 million soldiers, he’s in panic mode and highly unpredictable. The only thing that will stop Russia is strength.

[–] germanatlas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Putin is barely managing against a solo Ukraine and painstakingly avoiding open conflict with NATO territory. If you think Germany will be solo against Russia and thus requires a draft, you’re the naive one

[–] Eheran@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

The problem is not Russia defeating NATO. It is cowards stopping their support for Ukraine to "live in peace", idiots pressuring their government to stop helping to not get involved. That is the problem. That is what Ukraine is afraid of. And looking at how dumb and selfish most people are, yes, that can absolutely happen.

[–] ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Putin is barely managing against a solo Ukraine

Because Ukraine is supported by Europe which for now is beyond the reach of Russia. So Ukraine is successfully striking deep inside Russia but Russia can't touch the supply chain of Ukraine. Putin obviously is not planning to conquer all Europe. He wants to damage infrastructure crucial to supporting Ukraine and divert NATO's resources away from Ukraine. He will use as little resource as possible to achieve that, not invade Europe with all he has. He will do it if he sees that Europe is too weak to respond and so far Europe is proving that it clearly is.

painstakingly avoiding open conflict with NATO

[citation needed]

Russia regularly sends in drones into NATO airspace and attacks infrastructure. They tried to blow up planes filled with ammunition on an airport in Germany. I wouldn't call that "painstakingly avoiding open conflict". They are testing the boundaries and so far NATO showed that they are willing to tolerate clear acts of war while Russia is getting closer and closer to open conflict.

If you think Germany will be solo against Russia

No one says that. What you're saying makes no sense. You think that Russia can't fight entire NATO but also think that Germany is somehow preparing to fight them alone. Germany needs the draft to be able to help its allies. Every NATO ally is trying to improve its military now because when shit hits the fan they will all have to work together.

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[–] Quantillion@mstdn.io 7 points 1 week ago (3 children)

@susieq0044 @schizoidman
Putin has already lost 1.5 million soldiers.
That is a lesson that German youth are taking.

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[–] DrunkenPirate@feddit.org 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (4 children)

I don’t get the arguments of our youth. On one hand they say „I‘m not going to die in war for ya“ and on the other side they say „Putin will not attack us because we have way more weapons“

One has to fight for its rights, it’s not given as a present. If a neighbor country is aggressive and unpredictable, one has to serve in military service or civil service. Same as all young men in Germany did as well.

[–] for_some_delta@beehaw.org 21 points 1 week ago (6 children)

There is "no war, but the class war" because wealthy young men never see combat. Decision makers do not send their own children to die. Putin is also sending the poor.

[–] varyingExpertise@feddit.org 1 points 6 days ago

There is “no war, but the class war”

Perfect, so we just lay down and take whatever power desires to rule our place? You really think that Germany right now is a dictatorship and any other government would have no detrimental effect on your actual live whatsoever?

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[–] alexquiniou@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 week ago

Let's be honnest with ourself. We are on lemmy. We are commenting from our home confort about something we don't have to live.

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