Chapotraphouse

I think something that constantly gets lost in these back and forth arguments is the conditions that those in West Asia are affected by Zionism/Jewish Supremacy.

Telling them they're being reactionary because they believe in Jewish Supremacy is like telling a person of color suffering under colonialism/neo-colonialism that they're being racist because they believe in White Supremacy.

Obviously not all Jews are Zionists, but when you start to dictate to a victim of Israel that they are wrong even though the Judaism, as an institution, is responsible for their material conditions then you become the one ignoring material reality.

We've had West Asian comrades chased off because their perspectives (and material realities) are looked down upon because too often people are quick to react and conflate that with Nazism/White Supremacist thoughts on Judaism. But if we have members here asking those same West Asian comrades to consider that not all Jews are Zionists, would we not apply the same logic and realize that when they speak about Jewish Supremacy it is not in the same way a Nazi would talk about Jewish Supremacy?

"B-b-but a lot of Jews are Zionists!" Yeah, so? The problem is still the part where they're Zionist and not the part where they're Jewish.

So? So the problem is you're thinking too individualist. As a Marxist, I don't care about passing moral judgement. Here's a cold, factual material analysis instead. Jewish institutions are overwhelmingly Zionist and support the genocide materially. Temples hold auctions for stolen houses and collect money for the IAF. Real existing Jewish religion in the world today has a systemic, structural problem with Zionism. Or rather, the problem is that it doesn't have a problem with it. It has many material benefits and privilegees interlinking it with the imperialists, colonial genocide machine.

The minority of Jews who aren't Zionists have a hard time finding communities and places of worship, where they feel welcome and aren't excluded based on their principled rejection of the real white Jewish privilege to have the option to be able to move to my families area, kill them, steal their house, steal their land and get lots of state support to build a new live there. They are in the minority, they don't get any funding, they need outside support to affect real structural change inside institutionalized religion. But they are also in the best position to affect this change, to lead the reforms. If they don't take responsibility, there's no hope for institutionalized Jewish religion to move away from it's currently majority fascist, hegemonic class position.

If we were to ignore this real systemic issue, by focusing only on individual beliefs, we'd commit the error of classic idealism.

There's zero point to any of this discourse except to stir up controversy and alienate people. I genuinely think people are just bored and looking for hot takes to keep things going.

Yea this is a huge problem with online communities, most of these communities revolve around streamers or YouTubers and the algorithms favor drama over actual content. The end result is everyone looking for dunks instead of actually having a conversation.

the Jewish ethnicity.

there are several of these

the slavic or romani victims, or the political prisoners who suffered the same or even worse abuses in the same camps by the same fascist parasites as the jews, do not get to be immortalised in western literature, film, music, or other arts.

Within Nazi ideology, Jews, Slavs, Romani, and so on are vectors of ideological disease, and their extermination is within the framework of exterminating a population that's a carrier of disease due to greater susceptibility. But the ideological disease itself is communism. If certain members of the carrier population demonstrate that they have not been infected (eg Banderites, Ustashe, various other fascist collaborators), Nazis are more than happy to accept them, albeit within a lower level, of their fascist order. But any blue eye blonde hair German communist has been infected and must be exterminated, Aryan ubermenschness be damned.

We should treat people with the respect all deserve based on a right to religion. I'm a vehement atheist, but we've seen the harm that comes from outright banning or discriminating against people based on religion alone. Christians are not a monolith---I would be much more considerate and patient with a liberation theologist than I would a reactionary, same as I would be for any other religion.

If you disrespect all religions equally I'm not out here to yuck your yum. But trying to synonimize Judaism with Zionism is doing the Zionists work for them.

I support all corrective action against bad empanada fans.

The whole argument about whether or not the Zionist entity is white supremacist or jewish supremacist seems pointless to me.

it's very obviously both

The whole argument about whether or not the Zionist entity is white supremacist or jewish supremacist seems pointless to me. Neither ideology is the cause of the genocide, which is caused by material relationships and conditions. What material condition? European settler-colonialism.

I feel the need to make a pedantic but necessary correction. Ideology is an objective force, is itself a material condition to the extent that it influences human activity. White supremacy and Jewish supremacy are not only ideology. In the apartheid, they are the social reality. Constructing a Jewish apartheid state creates Jewish supremacist ideology which then reproduces itself through further material and ideological development. It cannot be reduced merely to European settler-colonialism because it is not an abstract European settler-colonial state, but a specifically Zionist one. In my opinion we must take care to understand Ideology, not simply reduce it to material conditions or to class.

I agree, the whole argument between the two of them only made me lose braincells. Of course a streamer like Hasan isn't going to aim for semantic correctness when he's pushing for an election win for a Muslim candidate. So dont put that much weight on what he says.

The thing is, you do eventually have no choice but to interface with the cultural side along with the material side. Religion and culture are powerful things, and just by taking a side in this conflict for the longest time it meant seeming anti-jew to most of the Jewish and Christian population. This sucked because you then had to answer for bigots and the some of the most bigoted opinions in history. So the recent effort to decouple Judaism from Zionism in the media has been useful for getting around this bs.

I think the bitterness coming from the geneva_convention and fuknslammer types comes from the electoral candidates piggybacking on this success. They are vindicated by the failure of campaigns like Platner and betrayals of AOC and so making the Palestinian cause less appealing to western leftists is seen to them as "helping".

They also may be too bitter now from viewing too many settlers videos and when you see that kind of violence perpetrated by mostly one religious group, the conclusion is you become bigoted towards that group. Combating that should be a main priority for Jewish activists. They should be involved in their synagogue and advocate for canceling Zionist activities like going on birthright. If they aren't currently the face of Jewishness, they should start becoming the face of Jewishness. It isn't all on us to forgive and forget.

Aren't a lot of Jews anti-Zionist?

In terms of percentages it's around 10-20 percent of them outside Israel, on the higher end in the US and on the lower end in Europe. Not that many in relative terms - especially when accounting for Jewish institutions being near-universally Zionist - but still hundreds of thousands.

I see Zionism as more of an oppunistic imperialist offshoot

Herzl and his successors have gone door-knocking by the British, the Ottomans briefly, the British again, the communists briefly, former Nazi Germans, the Americans and now the far right in general. Usually these alliances have rested on using a Jewish state to inhibit enemies in the regions for the allied partners. If circumstances change and Zionist ambitions become an obstacle rather than an asset, support wanes.

statistically not that many, especially when your definition of anti-zionism is actually anti-israel rather than being a squishy two state, one israel equal rights situation. when it comes to orgs self-IDing as Jewish, the vast majority are explicitly zionist