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systemd(ont) (lemmy.ml)
submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by arsCynic@piefed.social to c/linux@lemmy.ml
 

Because of the ubiquity, nay, monopoly of systemd I always assumed it was miles ahead of other init systems. Nope. I've been using a non-systemd environment for a while and must say I'm surprised by how little breaks, i.e., next to nothing. Moreover, boot and shutdown times are faster, and more of that good stuff. I suggest trying it out.

https://nosystemd.org/.

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[–] False@lemmy.world 33 points 4 months ago (2 children)

I've never had systemd break either

[–] arsCynic@piefed.social 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I've never had systemd break either

That's not what I'm implying. Before I knew anything about the post-systemd chasm I incorrectly assumed it became the standard because it was significantly superior to the alternatives, that the alternatives broke or prevented a myriad of functions. Turns out they don't. At least not judging from my experience in general PC usage.

[–] greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo 5 points 4 months ago (6 children)

I have. Never had your machine just sit there and refuse to boot because a network share is down? Or because the wifi isn't connected yet? Or because its waiting on some nebulous thing until timeout..

Never had to crawl through journalctl to diagnose things and wanted to claw your own eyes out in frustration?

You are a fortunate person.

[–] Archr@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

If you are having those issues with booting maybe it is because you configured your network share incorrectly? If you are waiting on shutdown timeouts for something then just go edit the timeout. systemctl edit <stuck thing>.

Typically when I crawl through journald it is to diagnose a problem with a specific application. Actually, the fact that those logs are easily accessible in a centralized place with easy to understand commands to access them is a reason why systemd (or more specifically systemd-journald) is so great.

The only times that I have had major issues like that was either because (A) I misconfigured something or (B) a package came misconfigured.

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[–] mexicancartel@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

I hate thoose timeouts. If only there was a way to manually trigger that timeout on shutdown tty, say Ctrl-C or something which can kill it

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[–] mactan@lemmy.ml 24 points 4 months ago

steady hand and a magnetized needle is all I need. kernel is bloat

[–] PseudoSpock@lemmy.dbzer0.com 24 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Boot speed is meaningless. Having to almost never reboot is everything.

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] thingsiplay@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sleep doesn't work well in some environments, like right now my current one using AMD+AMD hardware on EndeavourOS. Therefore I do boot. And couldn't care less for 10 seconds faster or slower boot times.

[–] pastermil@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Lol, I meant this to be a tongue-in-cheek saying

[–] thingsiplay@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago

Oh... :D But you were right.

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[–] azimir@lemmy.ml 20 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Use what works for you.

Develop what scratches your itch.

Don't tell OSS devs who are volunteering unpaid labor what they should do for you.

If you want a solution that's non-systemd go for it. If it doesn't exist make it or pay someone to do so. Write from scratch or fork a project and get to work. That's the way of the Bazaar.

I'll be in my unenlightened "things work for me good enough" Linux world using what works. Systemd is fine and rarely gives me problems. Actually, I'm not even sure I can remember any.

Huge thank you's to the devs who make this all possible. You rock!

[–] Liketearsinrain@lemmy.ml 15 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Systemd is developed primarily by paid developers.

[–] zurchpet@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I think that is a good thing, isn't it?

[–] Liketearsinrain@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago

Of course it is, I was just addressing the part about "unpaid volunteers". I think it's fair game to criticize a corporation throwing their weight around to push their tools on the ecosystem.

[–] arsCynic@piefed.social 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Use what works for you.

True, but many don't know other init systems might work for them because of the same wrong assumption I had.

Huge thank you’s to the devs who make this all possible. You rock!

Definitely. One big ecosystem with a multitude of developers working on a multitude of projects.

[–] greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo 4 points 4 months ago (20 children)

Its built antithetically to the unix principles, it uses binlogs, its slow and its a big ol' bloated mess on low-memory embedded devices, and seemingly is creeping into the whole system.

Also the original author has since fucked off to microslop so I don't care what he thinks or does.

It, as a project, also bent the fucking knee.

[–] marmalade@sh.itjust.works 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Oh hey it's the same nonsense people have been saying for a decade now.

First of all, Linux is not Unix, and Unix principles were developed in like the fuckin 80s when what a computer is and does was different from what it is and does today. I'm betting you also use other software that doesn't follow the 'Unix' philosophy all the damn time, like, I dunno, the browser you used to post this nonsense. It was a guiding principle, not meant to be a dogmatic religious ideology. Also it not being the best choice for low memory embedded devices doesn't mean anything. It was designed for the desktop. These are very different platforms with very different needs. That's like complaining that the wheels on my car don't let it fly.

Also, bent the knee to who?

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[–] DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml 16 points 4 months ago (2 children)
for script in $(find /etc/init/start); do
    exec $script &
done

while true; do sleep; done

Undoubtedly the best init system that exists. No fluff, just starts services.

[–] infeeeee@lemmy.zip 24 points 4 months ago (3 children)

Why do you need services at all? Just start each program when you need it. Shell is bloat.

[–] FauxLiving@lemmy.world 11 points 4 months ago

You only need programs if you're unhappy with the current state of your life. Delete computer, become enlightened.

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 4 points 4 months ago

SysV wants to have a word.

[–] DieserTypMatthias@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)
[–] Liketearsinrain@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago

Yeah but lacks some functionality. I prefer /bin/emacs so I can edit text as well as run commands. EXWM is bloat.

[–] greyscale@lemmy.grey.ooo 7 points 4 months ago

I mean.. thats kinda what runit does.

[–] balsoft@lemmy.ml 15 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Honestly for desktop usage it doesn't really matter. All inits have their idiosyncrasies ("A stop job is running for Session"/logging hell on openrc/etc). But for managing a fleet of bare-metal servers I find systemd to be the best, most polished one out of the lot.

[–] arsCynic@piefed.social 9 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Honestly for desktop usage it doesn’t really matter.
Which is a big reason why the systemd dominance irks me.

But for managing a fleet of bare-metal servers I find systemd to be the best, most polished one out of the lot. Fair enough. My experience lies mainly with the former so I cannot argue this.

[–] False@lemmy.world 14 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It matters to distro maintainers, which is why it's everywhere now.

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[–] fozid@feddit.uk 11 points 4 months ago

After over a decade using systemd in arch and Debian, I never had any direct issues with it. However, I never truly got my head around it or got comfortable with how it functioned. I recently swapped arch for void which uses runit, and after over a month using it I to an amazed both how clean and simple it is, how everything just works, how easy to interact and use runit is and am blown away by boot and shutdown times. My arch / systemd setup was heavily optimised for boot, and I thought was quick, but runit starts in about 4 seconds and shutdown is about 2 seconds.

[–] TCB13@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago

Systemd is mile ahead of the others, thing is that solves problems that you most likely don’t have or even know that exist. To boot a regular machine or small server pretty much any init system is good.

[–] juipeltje@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago

I'm sure this post isn't going to be controversial at all lol

[–] sudoer777@lemmy.ml 7 points 4 months ago

Systemd has been putting a lot of effort into eliminating the need for SUID binaries with run0 and polkit integrations, so I'm curious if other init systems are doing anything similar.

[–] Samsy@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (5 children)

Advanced Distro-hopper over here: I am actually fine with cachyOS. If I want to leave systemd only good alternative I found is atrix. Someone tried their new stable release of 2026? Arch + openrc + Wayland + pipewire + KDE would be my usecase.

[–] Neptr@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago

Funnily enough OpenRC is probably the slowest of the inits offered by Artix. The current best in both features and stability are Dinit and s6. Dinit is far more user friendly. Both boot ~20% faster than the others, and much faster than systemd. Generally though, simplicity without expense to features is what Dinit and s6+66 excel at.

Gentoo wiki page comparing inits: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems

From the Dinit developer: https://github.com/davmac314/dinit/blob/master/doc/COMPARISON

[–] ati@piefed.social 3 points 4 months ago
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[–] amaryllisfever@lemmychan.org 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I don't ever have breakage due to systemd.

[–] Obin@feddit.org 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

These days OpenRC even has user-services. And writing a simple OpenRC service file is barely more complex than a systemd unit file, maybe even simpler, because it's readable bash, not some declarative DSL.

Obviously there is in no way feature parity between those two, that's the point, personally the one thing I'd like to have is something similar to systemd's timers (which I actually prefer to old-school cron) built into OpenRC, but most other things I can live without.

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[–] Sxan@piefed.zip 2 points 4 months ago (5 children)

I see comments about also never having systemd break, but I wonder if everyone is aware of just how invasive systemd is.

Having DNS resolution issues? Probably systemd related (systemd-resolved). Having any issue with ${HOME}, including encryption? Probably systemd (systemd-homed). Getting system log messages painfully slow? Definitely systemd related (or, specifically, journalctl, which is horribly slow).

Ever noticed how Linux is getting slower and slower to boot? Absolutely systemd. Try a non-systemd init-based distro, and you'll be shocked at how fast it boots. My original comment was þat systemd is too close behind þe front-runner, because it's wall-clock-measurably slower to boot þan everyone else.

[–] arsCynic@piefed.social 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

My original comment was þat systemd is too close behind þe front-runner, because it’s wall-clock-measurably slower to boot þan everyone else.

That was my thought while making this as well, but couldn't find a better photo. Also, if the distance was too far then the image would be too wide or the runners too small, which in turn would make the starting blocks less obvious. Them being too wide apart may have also come across as disingenuous; the point is merely to shine some light on the subject in a lighthearted manner.

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