cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/25133597
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Obligatory, fuck Spez
Tankies aren't communists.
"Tankie" is a pejorative that basically looks like an exact replica of McCarthy's strawman of a Communist. The purpose of the term is to claim the accused that they genuinely hold those McCarthyian characteristics, regardless of reality. It shuts down conversation because it would be inconvenient to have those conversations, it's a thought-terminating cliché more than a real thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Here are some thoughts:
Marx said communism is stateless
The state won't wither away if you keep defending its right to use force
The vanguard party must either accept revolution against themselves so that society can become more communist, or become reactionary tyrants
Modern Russia isn't fucking socialist, you don't need to defend it anymore
State capitalism isn't socialism. State socialism requires robust democracy
Every actual successful communist nation that reached communism didn't have a vanguard state
Being an enemy of the West doesn't mean a country inherently deserves your support. That's how voting works, it's not how international relations work
Trump is planning to displace the Palestinians and make Gaza a US colony, and Lemmy's Marxist-Leninist community tried to help him
Having a small movement with little power isn't an excuse for making bad decisions. Take responsibility for your actions
Drag is not seeking to have an argument about each and every one of these points. Drag is seeking to prove that "tankie bad" is not a thought terminating cliche as you said. Drag has plenty of thoughts, and has already discussed them exhaustively on this platform. And this list of thoughts isn't an invitation to sealion.
every type of leftism that im aware of except for social democrats want to achieve a stateless society. to be fair im not sure if social democrats can even be considered leftists.
Different leftists have a different idea of what constitutes the "State" and what "Statelessness" looks like. For Marxists, the State is the oppressive elements of class society like millitarized police and armies that can only go away once the world is fully publicly owned and planned, and becomes classless. Anarchists however have an issue with hierarchy, rather than class, and want full decentralization and horizontalism. For a Marxist, Anarchism isn't "stateless" as it retains class distinctions (each commune is interested in its own success), Anarchists obviously would see Marxism as not truly stateless.
This difference is why a lot of conversations go nowhere between some Marxists and Anarchists.
i generally lean ML, but both of these are stateless to me? isnt this really about horizontal vs hierarchical power?
If we are to agree with Engels, Communes (or cooperatives) consist entirely of Petite Bourgeoisie, unless there is no interaction outside said commune. Trade between communes implies each commune wishing to get more out of the trade, which implies differences in material wealth in communes that can then escalate into Capitalism. It isn't what we think of as a State, but some form of armed millitia must be maintained to enshrine ownership within a commune, and not outside it, ergo a state enforcing class distinctions.
Really, though, I think the term "stateless" brings ideological baggage rather than logical. What's important is the structures themselves, not how we wish to label them. Conversations around "true" Communism or whatnot inevitably fall into ideological debate based in idealism, rather than a logical analysis of material conditions.
Of course drag isn't inviting to sealion, drag is gish-galloping and isn't interested in any conversation. drag has proven this, from defending Nazi-led pograms as "true revolution" to pretending Marx was an Anarchist and wanted full decentralized horizontalism, rather than full centralization and democratization as industry gets ever more complex.
drag is therefore either uninterested in genuine conversation, or is a troll.
Yeah, at this point the word "tankie" is used so liberaly that communists are just one type of "tankie".
or "tankie" is just a type of communist. who knows at this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
Karl Marx said communism is stateless. Tankies are named after their support of soviet tanks to put down revolutions. That's the opposite of stateless.
Marx also described the State as the elements of government that entrench class distinctions like private property rights and armies, but that such a state could only wither away once all industry was publicly owned and controlled. Marx believed the workers needed to be armed and protect revolution.
This has also been explained before, but one of the "revolutions" you defended was led by Nazis that were marking the doors of Jews and Communists, and had started lynching them.
Lol, well I guess there are no communists then, because not even Marx himself, as nonone has achieved statelessness.
Also, what a stupid image, it's literally just horseshoe theory with "I'm on of the good leftists" liberal boot licking thrown in
Well except for the Catalonians, the Haudenosaunee, the Australians, the Polynesians...
Catalan made their own "state" that's not stateless. Humans need societies and structures, we aren't tigers, we're weak hairless monkeys.
Ok, I think I'm comfortable resting my case that you contorting the meaning of the word 'communist' beyond reason.
Dude you know what I mean, don't be the ACKSHUALLY guy
FOSS isn't Soviet style state capitalism / socialism either.
Ok man, you do you.
I checked you profile, in 4 months you have 3 times the comments I wrote in 3 years and you answered my comment within 1 minute.
I strongly suggest a healthy cure of touching grass.
Drag suggests you learn what a dude, guy, or man is, and why perhaps you shouldn't call strangers those words, especially after investigating their profiles and most likely realising they're nonbinary.
Yeah I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to misgender you, in my language all of those are intended as gender neutral. And please don't feel my suggestions are something meant to attack you, just don't focus on small details to avoid listening what other people are really meaning to say.