Again, it's not my experience that such analysis boils down to defending Russia. You don't have to agree with an argument to understand it, and you need to understand it if you don't want to misrepresent it.

[–] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I do understand the argument, and it lays all accountability for Russia's invasion at the feet of the US, NATO, and Ukraine.

It's the equivalent of blaming Iraq for the US invasion, or blaming Hamas for Israel destroying Gaza. Make sense?

[+] electric_nan@lemmy.ml -5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If Putin came in as a liberator, sure. Instead it became a convenient excuse for the subjugation of Ukrainian people, demoralizing them and terrorizing them with war crimes, so he can annex their land and strip them of natural resources.

The US was heavily involved in overthrowing that government.

Slight reference here to a prominent Russian theory that Ukraine is under US deep state government control. Which is this was true, the US wouldn't looking to switch sides to Russia. And Ukraine wouldn't be so set on continuing to defend itself even if the US switches.

That's why I'm saying, pro-Russia leftists are going to mentally crumble if the US switches over, because their entire world view (the one they like to call their "nuanced geopolitical view") has been ripped apart.

[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml -4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I genuinely believe that a Harris administration would also be looking for an exit at this point. The US has failed to meet most (any?) of its objectives with this proxy war, and is finally admitting it. This is a bitter pill indeed for many people in Ukraine and abroad. The fact is that nothing will turn the tide/retake territory, barring US/NATO intervention. I cannot see that happening no matter who sits in the oval office. Trump is a brash asshole about it, just like everything else, but I think the results will be the same.

[–] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I can't argue against anything you said there.

The advantage of a Harris administration is that the US would continue to be unfriendly to Russia, so pro-Russia leftists could continue to believe that Ukraine was just a vassal ruled by US deep state plants, and not have to face the world-shattering reality of a US-Russia alliance against Ukraine.

[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I think you are grinding your axe too sharply. The US never has anyone's best interest in mind, under any administration. Official US support for Ukraine has never been about freedom, democracy, etc. With that in mind, has the US truly been a friend to the Ukrainian people? They have persisted in prolonging and funding the war well past the point where the prospect of victory had disappeared, at great cost of Ukrainian lives.

Trump is not going to "ally" with Russia. If you call negotiating a peace deal that reflects the relative strength of the Russian position an "alliance" I will have to disagree with you. The worst part of what Trump is doing is extorting Ukraine for the privilege of having suffered for US strategic aims.

[–] rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"Negotiating a peace deal"

Ukraine was not involved in the peace deal, it was Russia and the US alone behind closed doors.

That's not a normal peace deal.

And now Israel is voting in the UN in favor of Russia.

The US, Israel, and Russia are similar countries with similar leaders, similar goals, similar methods. Unless we actually see one of the three experience an internal revolution, an alliance is inevitable.

[–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml -1 points 1 day ago

Ukraine has no leverage to broker any kind of peace. If the US totally cuts off military aid to Ukraine, they cannot hold against Russia. Thus the reality is revealed: this is a proxy war for the US. I know this hurts and is very unfair to Ukrainians, but it just is what it is. Sure, Ukraine can ignore the results of any negotiation, but it will continue the fight without US support-- a fight it has been slowly losing even with that support.

Israel votes with the US on things like this in exchange for US always voting to protect Israel from any censure.